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Being Evil and CRPGs
Topic Started: Jan 22 2007, 02:06 AM (227 Views)
Eral
Kopi Luwak
I have just read the short discussion between Krazy and Bex in the NWN thread about playing evil characters: and out of respect for the conversation (and the fact that I have no idea about anything else in the thread) have decided not to go off-topic.

I am really interested in the idea of playing evil characters: but I can never do it. :'( I always feel really guilty. I accept this, partly because if ever all my neuroses are cured I will have no personality to speak of. However, the questions remain: what happens when.....? I am playing Oblivion at the moment, and there are many opportunities to be really evil. I tried playing as a thief, but could only rob from NPCs I didn't like: so I didn't make much money. Also, I kept giving things back to their rightful owners and stuffed up my chances of more work. :(
I am thinking of giving it another try. I have been told that you can still remain in the Fighter's Guild and be a thief, but I have my doubts still. I think all those years of going for a high rep in BG have left a serious dislike of bounties on my soul.
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
I really don't like Oblivion. The combat is so off-putting, I really have no idea whether I am any good at it or not. Its hold the "mash to death button and hope" as far as I can see.

I think for me the most common problem with playing evil in CRPGs is they are horribly skewed towards being good, or at least that you are going to have to fight the bad guy and save the world from the next wanna big evil overlord thing.
Why can't I ever be that evil overlord? (*evil grin*)
Also too many quests only pay lip-service to completing them in an evil way, with what I call "jackass" dialogue. You know along the lines of,
"My husband went missing can you find him for me?"

1. Sure thing, no probs, only happy to serve (nauseating, moronic LG dialogue)
2. Of course, but I need a fee (middle line)
3. Obviously, couldn't stand to be around you then?

(sorry can't think of anything better at the moment, but you get the idea )

I already said that as much as I like playing evil, it always seems more tempting doesn't it?, that when I decide to be truly evil I get guilty about it, which is not a recipe for keeping your sanity so I just tend not to get too involved.
"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Blood_Raven
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Come burn with me.
The only games that I have played truly evil are the Knights of the Old Republic games. Hey if you want to be an evil Sith Lord, you have to be evil. It can be fun. Using the Force to choke someone into submission rules.

But there are some times where I felt guilty doing something bad. One time was in Kotor 1 where a woman has this animal hide she wants you to sell for her, she needs the money it will bring to feed her kids and get off the planet. You can keep it, being an evil bastard, thus making them stay on the planet going hungry and without shelter. I felt guilty so I ended up reloading the game before I did that and took the good course of action. Otherwise being evil is fun.
TheFrozen North forums. Where it's at.
Mood for today: Perfection
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Regullus
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Reliant
I agree, I do think the games I've played so far were geared towards the good and the evil options seemed poorly developed or too extreme. I don't really have the desire to play evil but I wouldn't mind more neutral options; neither heroic nor evil, you know, average.

As to emotions, well, yes, there have been many of times I've felt emotional about actions and fellow characters and storyline.

I lost Dogmeat in Fallout and I still feel upset about it. A game I played called The Secret of Evermore when your characters died, a small boy and his dog, a screenshot would come up showing them curled up and sleeping and the caption "Frank (my now husband) and Shout (my then wolf hybrid) were never seen again." Honestly the trauma. Who hasn't wanted to belt one of their companions or tell another to shut up and feels a little like a weasel when a certain redhead has a meltdown after a brief indiscretion or hasn't been a tad bewildered over a certain bathtub scene. Is that sexy or just a little too weird? It's our emotions that adds dimension to the gaming experience.


tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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Bex
puppet dictator
Ah, evil. My issues with it are about the same as those stated. The provided options are frequently unsatisfying or unrewarding or both. Plus there’s the guilt factor, and if I dissociate from my PC too much, I won’t be engaged any longer and I’m liable to lose interest.

As I wrote in the NWN thread, I’ll often go with a CN alignment for flexibility’s sake. It can be enjoyable to lie shamelessly, tell people to sod off, take things that aren’t yours, still be kind to old ladies and puppies, and possibly become a hero by accident. Playing CN, the “jerk” dialogue options (Krazy’s “jackass”) can be more appealing than for a character who’s supposed to be evil (I demanded more money, boy I sure am badass).

Some games, and some party configurations, have more emotional grab to them than others. A BG2 party I refer to as “Declan’s Misfits” has been a truly fine gaming experience, because of the constant sense that Declan is just barely managing to hold them together (Viconia, Aerie, Haer’Dalis, Keto/Sarevok, rotating/Yoshimo/Imoen). There’s a lot of drama in that group, and Declan’s just lucky to have a drinking buddy like Keto to help him take the edge off.

The NWN mod Krazy and I have been discussing at such great length also has great potential for drama and emotional involvement. The main character is constantly thrust into perilous situations (to paraphrase Vico: “This isn’t some adventure you can just walk away from any time you like.”), and scripted events keep you constantly in touch with just how dangerous everything really is, and how morality is fragile in the face of survival. Time and again, I’d find myself gawking at the screen and thinking, “Is this really happening?” It keeps you off-balance. Very well done.

Reg: This Secret of Evermore sounds sad, though I imagine the impact would be somewhat less if the character names were entirely fictional.
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
Quote:
 
I really don't like Oblivion. The combat is so off-putting, I really have no idea whether I am any good at it or not. Its hold the "mash to death button and hope" as far as I can see.


Ah, but this exactly the style of combat I like best. :lol: When I don't have six characters I can order around.

Being evil in BG and NWN is certainly a non-event: you get to have low popularity and things cost more, and you still have to save the world. Morrowind is a little like that: except you can be an assassain if you like. In Oblivion, you can betray your guild, join the baddies in the main quest, and join the Dark brotherhood and run around murdering people. Not that I have done any of these things, of course.

I'm kind of disappointed in myself that I can't play evil characters. I enjoy being the hero. And I get way too attached to NPCs.
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Blood_Raven
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Come burn with me.
Being evil in NWN2.

Posted Image

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TheFrozen North forums. Where it's at.
Mood for today: Perfection
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
I remember that, I slit Wyl's throat. hehehehehe.
"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
The reason I don't play evil characters if because I always play as if it the character were actually me (I mentioned this in the NWN thread).

Certainly a handicapping issue as far as alignments go.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
It's more of a fantasy experience for me. My character has co-ordination and strength. Really not like RL.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
I'm no hulking hero, myself, but one can always pretend that he or she has undergone a more extensive training regimen than in real life.

I typically play as a warrior, but I try to represent myself semi-realistically with my ability scores. I try to put Strength around 15, Dexterity around 12, Constitution around 13-15, Wisdom 14-15, Intelligence 13, and Charisma 9-10. I like that in NWN, you can add to your abilities as you become more experienced, so I use those opportunities, generally, to improve my warrior attributes. It only makes sense.

By the way, when you start out a character in PnP, do you start out at Level 0? If so, is it assumed that when you start at Level 1 in the many CRPGS, you already have some kind of experience under your belt?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
I would (modestly) say my own hand-eye co-ordination is very good, and my manual dexterity is good, but sadly as a specimen of physical fitness, I come up very poorly. So, good dex, poor con, high int, and not even that tall. Oh noes, I'm an elf :lol:

But I play the biggest bad-ass warriors going, so I will start typically with,
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8.

Dex 13 and Int 13, because they are the min requirements for getting the feats necessary for Weapon Master, which has been nerfed somewhat in NWN2, sadly.

So either Rogue 3/Fighter x/WM 7 or Bard 1/Fighter 4+/RDD 10 for NWN1

NWN2 allows 4 classes so you can have truly lovely combos,

Like Bard 1/Fighter 4/RDD 10/WM 5

Or my evil run through as a Rogue 3/Assassin 5/Duelist 7/WM 5


"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
If I gave myself characteristics that match myself in real life, I'd be a halfling cleric with low constitution. <_< An interesting challenge, but I'd be reloading every 2 minutes. And I'd never be able to cast level 8 spells. And what's the point of that??
I remember a discussion at PPG about assigning characteristics that match your real life ones, and there was a fella who believed no-one in real life could have Int, Dex or Wis over 12. (I believe it was sparked by a quiz.)
I shamelessly give my PC the best possible characteristics for her class: here's the chance to have the perfect skills for my life and I'm going for it. I particularly enjoy giving myself high Dex.
In BG I never switch classes, I am always a pure fighter, mage or cleric. I hate not being able to advance further. :lol:
In Morrowind and Oblivion, however, I have become accustomed to blending my skills: and I enjoy being a fighter mage with good unlocking skills. A good fireball shits all over an arrow for long distance fighting, and there's nothing like a big enchanted sword to get rid of all your close up enemies. ;D
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
Indeed, who plays clerics anyway????? If you have high wis, play a monk or even a druid. :D


"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
A monk?? :mercy: They don't carry weapons. I have Minsc with a dirty great sword as my frontline: I need a monk jumping around barehanded? I think not. I need a cleric in my party for Finger of Death and someone to carry the nifty warhammers. In the interests of party balance, sometimes the cleric has to be me. I can never romance Kelsey in front of Anomen, and I'm over Aerie.

While I like the idea of druids, and I always have one in the party for healing and the swarm of insects spell, I find playing a druid exceptionally boring. No swords, and shapechanging is a complete waste of time. Also, I always have Jaheira.

I admit I am a complete failure as a gamer. I don't care for kensais and bards, either. :cringe:
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
Well if you are talking BG2 (I was thinking more NWN1/2 there), then I would never ever play a healer type, (unless it is a Ranger/Cleric as they are munchkin like in power) and the game is littered with them anyway.

I don't like Bards either, just ask Bex. :lol:

But my fav character of all time is a Fighter/Mage/Thief, that I like to :1337: up a bit with Shadowkeeper, into a Kensai/Mage/Assassin. They r0x0rz!
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Bex
puppet dictator
I usually go the bard or thief route myself, I suppose because they're the classes to which I can best relate.

High dexterity is something of a stretch for me, as I have a tendency to bump into furniture and knock things over. On the other hand, I have good aim, and my stealth skills are proven, so perhaps I'm only clumsy when it doesn't really matter. Average.

I'd venture I'm marginally stronger and tougher than many women in my age group, but that's not saying much. Still pretty average, and definitely untrained.

I will say I'm bright, and people credit me with being wise and likeable. I don't think of myself as much of a leader because I shy away from taking direct responsibility for others.

So I'd cast myself as the charming, witty, and roguish sidekick who usually manages to come up with good advice.
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
As soon as they release a game where the PC is a lefty primary school teacher with a smart mouth and wicked sense of humour who can sing, I'll identify.
Until then, I'll be pretending I am a master of the sword and save villages. :lol:
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Quote:
 
High dexterity is something of a stretch for me, as I have a tendency to bump into furniture and knock things over. On the other hand, I have good aim, and my stealth skills are proven, so perhaps I'm only clumsy when it doesn't really matter. Average.

I'd venture I'm marginally stronger and tougher than many women in my age group, but that's not saying much. Still pretty average, and definitely untrained.

I will say I'm bright, and people credit me with being wise and likeable. I don't think of myself as much of a leader because I shy away from taking direct responsibility for others.

So I'd cast myself as the charming, witty, and roguish sidekick who usually manages to come up with good advice.


Aside from the roguish aspects. I'd say that's a fair description of myself, as well. My personality isn't strong enough for me to be a leader, and I also despise open confrontation. I might take the king aside and give him my advice rather than argue it in a heated debate between a bunch of people. I prefer intimate interaction. When I sit in the front of a classroom, I tend to participate more in discussions; this is only because I'm actually directing my words more toward my instructors, who are physically nearer to me, and thus feels more like a one-on-one.

I also wouldn't want to have the responsibility of a leader.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Blood_Raven
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Come burn with me.
Playing evil can be fun. I see it as a form of agression release that you can't do in RL, like go to a town and blow everone away.
TheFrozen North forums. Where it's at.
Mood for today: Perfection
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
It works that way for a lot of people. My nephew - one of the sweetest adolescents you could hope to know -is currently playing as a vampire Dark Brotherhood assasain.
I just can't do it. I'm struggling to find people to rob, at the moment. They have to be bad before I can bring myself to break into their houses. :(
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