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Values and identity; Plurality or racism?
Topic Started: Jan 28 2007, 03:32 AM (695 Views)
Eral
Kopi Luwak
Quote:
 
Foreign elements are welcome here, as long as they don't conflict with our society's values, and as long as our own elements are held ...special to our particular nation.


This is a subject of hot debate here at the moment: we are trying to identify what are the important values immigrants should hold before we let them come to our country.

The thing is: why demand this only of migrants?

We are having horrible difficulty defining those values; and when we do, finding ones that our laws and practices actually implement. Little Johnny is fond of saying mateship and a fair go are Australian values. I'd go for being prepared to live peacefully next to groups with whom you have historical antipathy. Especially after the fighting at the Australian Open Serb vs Croat game last week.

Years ago, a very successful book called "They're a Weird Mob" was published, telling the story of an Italian immigrant here in the 50's, and his adaptation to the very whitebread and tomato sauce culture he found. The author is both bemused by and fond of the behaviours he describes: and is quite accepting of the premise that he should drop his accent and language and "odd" ways. (Though he didn't entirely.)

I believe we feel safe with people like us, and we fear people who are different to us. When we demand people be the same, we are really saying "I am afraid."




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lara
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Kopi Luwak
I agree 100% with your last statement. Funny thing is, in Canada, we long ago found out that who we are keeps changing. There's always a new group to be afraid of - and the last group is in with the rest, fearing.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Quote:
 

I believe we feel safe with people like us, and we fear people who are different to us. When we demand people be the same, we are really saying "I am afraid."


Now hold on; you're making a huge leap, here. Wanting to preserve one's own culture is different from wanting everyone to act the same.

I don't have a problem with people who speak Spanish or Chinese at home or walking down the street. That's stupid.

It's just the idea that we should accommodate other cultures at the expense of our own, and consider aspects of other cultures to be sacred but our own open for complete abuse.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
What are the elements of our culture that are being compromised? What aspects are being abused?

For instance, Australians have always rattled on about a fair go. We held that to mean the same standard of health and education being open to everyone. Well, that's a very expensive ideal, and it's slowly being whittled away. But it isn't migrants who are causing the change in attitude.

I know there are people who feel that Christianity seems to be up for open slather, while criticism of Islam is a no-go: but there is an essential difference between Christianity and Islam - Christians have been challenging, criticising and changing their religion since go, whereas Islam stopped doing that interpretative stuff a couple of centuries ago. We have dozens of different brands of Christianity: not really true for Islam. I read an article suggesting Christians are tolerant of religious criticism and discussion because it's a part of our religion.
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Regullus
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Reliant
I find it hard to argue with your conclusion that it invokes fear but I would argue whether it promotes unreasonable fears.

I'm all for diversity but I'm for positive diversity. I'll be blunt, there are many social and cultural mores that I neither wish to export or have imported.

In the US, I don't think we handle prostitution properly. I basically think it should be properly overseen and sex workers should be adults and should be protected from exploitation and harm. Although, I do wonder if it can ever be healthy. In Iran, forinstance, prostitution is a capital offense. Do I wish that to be imported into my country? No.

Do I wish sexual mutilation to be a aspect of my country? No. Do I wish dead women to be sold as brides for dead single men? No.

Do I wish dogs to be eaten or outlawed as unclean? No.

Do I wish women to be forced to wear burkas or uniforms of that type? Do I wish women to be segregated in church from men whether by an opaque wall or simply isolated within the stucture?

Am I unreasonable to be concerned about societies who isolate themselves from my society (whether homegrown or foreign)?

Do I wish people to embrace customs and mores that are the antithesis of their culture?

Should I be expected to embrace all differences? Should I rejoice in all differences?

People are different and differences should be tolerated if not respected but to pretend that all cultures are sympathetic to each other does not seem to be borne out by facts. Cultures can clash and be discordant with each other.

If I go to an Islamic country, I would try and respect their social customs and mores. I would try not to offend the people and the authorities. It's only normal to behave that way.

Why is it so unreasonable for a country to wish the same courtesy from its immigrants?

Ok, I'm done. :rolleyes:



tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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lara
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Kopi Luwak
I guess the part of my culture I value most is its acceptance, openness and freedom. If I insist other people adhere to my ideals of acceptance and openness, am I being accepting and open? Am I allowing freedom? That's a tough one, because I draw the line when people start to infringe on others' rights - so there are certain practices, such as female circumcision or white supremacist behaviour (actions - hate-mongering, active racism, etc. - not just thoughts) that I will not accept and I think should be outlawed.
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
In this country the Islam question is a biggie. For instance many white people would say the country has done its utmost to accommodate their faith but get very little back from them except demands for things to be changed in their favour.
So when can they say, "If you don't like it here, why not move somewhere else?"

Accommodation is a two-way process each having to compromise somewhere in the middle, and its not all one-way.
"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
I used to value that about Australia, lara. <_< Not any more though. :cry:

Krazy: that'd be like the woman who insisted on wearing nikab while she taught in the same room as a man who wasn't related to her, obeying the instructions of her imam and got sacked. The mosque leaders wanted to force the issue, and took the case to court. She won compensation for being dismissed, but the school was found to have been reasonable in their request that she not wear nikab because it muffled her speech. Nil all score.

There are many aspects of different cultures that are confronting, weird and icky. (I knew eating dogs would be particularly upsetting for Regullus. :lol:) But none of them are being forced on us, and most are addressed through education and discussion. For example, my local council is funding a campaign to educate Somali refugees about the laws on mutilation. We are not suddenly allowing it because it's a custom in Africa. I don't see that our culture is being eroded because migrants are rejecting our customs and laws.

Is a woman wearing hidjab or a sheitel offending against our customs? No. We have a history of religious freedom.

Is the bunch of loonies getting together in Sydney to discuss an Islamic super-state offending against our customs? No. We have laws protecting freedom of speech. If they were getting together to talk about forcing the take-over of our government, then there'd be trouble. However, I really don't see a problem with them imagining a world where everyone spontaneously converts to islam and does exactly what they say. (Mainly because it's so funny. Good luck on that one, boys. :titter:)

Cultures clash, people have different beliefs. That will always be a difficulty. But when the dominant culture starts complaining about being over-run, and yet can't point to any loss of freedom or law, you have to ask, how much is fear of the nebulous?

There was a case here not long ago of an Aboriginal elder in a very remote area who forced himself on a 15 year old girl who had been promised to him as a bride. When the case first went to trial, the judge gave him a suspended sentence, because he said the man was acting in accordance with Aboriginal law and in ignorance of "white" law. The NT government appealed, and the man was eventually given three years because his offence was against Australian law. At first, people were inclined to say, "well, the man was just ignorant" and the magistrate was supported. But the POV that sexual assault of 15 year olds is unacceptable, and that women are not owned by men was ultimately held to be the dominant and lawful view. Culture clash, or culture meld?
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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Eral
Jan 28 2007, 10:11 PM
Cultures clash, people have different beliefs. That will always be a difficulty. But when the dominant culture starts complaining about being over-run, and yet can't point to any loss of freedom or law, you have to ask, how much is fear of the nebulous?

This is exactly how I feel. How is that woman who is completely covered except for her eyes offensive? I don't understand that at all. People see someone who refuses to adapt, but in order to see whether someone has met us half-way, we have to be able to see what they were like before. Perhaps this woman came from a country where she wasn't allowed out without a male relative, where she couldn't get an education or work outside the home, where she was chattel, not a human being. Now she's come halfway around the world and is riding a subway alone, looking at all these people in Western clothing. We should insist she shed her only protection in a situation that is completely foreign to her - her clothing that keeps her safe from prying eyes? And many of these people watch the transformation of their children, as well. We see kids who are covered, they see jeans underneath the enveloping dress. We see people who don't welcome outsiders, they hear their children speaking Western slang and learning Western ideals in schools.

If it doesn't affect me and it doesn't infringe on others' rights, why should I insist they give up their cultural comforts?
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
I don't particularly like the fact that many, many signs and such are written in Spanish and English.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Why?

I live in a country where there are laws about what languages can or can't appear on signs. I get mildly ticked at the Quebec law that doesn't allow signs in, say, Chinatown to have Chinese characters that are more prominent than the French, but I have no problem with the many French/English signs, or signs in other languages, for that matter.

In fact, many signs in Canada just skip the words altogether. Little person in a skirt; little person without a skirt. No need for "Men" and "Women."
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Your country has French and English because the natives there are either Francophones or Anglophones.

Spanish appears on signs because of immigrants, and while it's not something that just kills me, it is an annoyance. People should learn our language if they're going to live here.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Bex
puppet dictator
I should think bilingual signs would help someone learn a second language, if only in the sense that they'd have to be awfully dense to not figure out that the English phrase means the same as the Spanish phrase.

It's really difficult for an average adult person to learn a new language. Children's brains can absorb the necessary information very easily (which is incidentally why they don't get confused when raised in multilingual households), plus when we're born, we can make every sound necessary for any language we may be exposed to. We lose this capacity when we get older (pretty much as soon as we develop recognizable speech), specializing to the language(s) we learn from our families.

Some adults retain an affinity for language acquisition, but it's rare, and they still don't have the capacity of the average baby.
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
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I should think bilingual signs would help someone learn a second language, if only in the sense that they'd have to be awfully dense to not figure out that the English phrase means the same as the Spanish phrase.


What is the motivation to do so? No one sits and analyzes a sign; we read them and move on.

Quote:
 
It's really difficult for an average adult person to learn a new language. Children's brains can absorb the necessary information very easily (which is incidentally why they don't get confused when raised in multilingual households), plus when we're born, we can make every sound necessary for any language we may be exposed to. We lose this capacity when we get older (pretty much as soon as we develop recognizable speech), specializing to the language(s) we learn from our families.


All I want is people to try.

And what does the hardening of vocal chords have to do with this? Yeah, people will have accents; so? Because of that they shouldn't try?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
My mother used to get particularly annoyed if we used an overtly Orstraine accent. "It's saw, not sore!" she would snap. (Difficult having lessons in enunciation of the English language from someone with an Irish accent. I still hesitate when saying "saw".)

re.acquisition of English: Perhaps the opportunity to study English wasn't readily available before they came? And they were too busy working and raising children to have the time to study? Maybe, because they work at the crappiest jobs, everyone else they work with is a migrant too, therefore they can't learn at work? I know my mother-in-law learned Filipino rather than English at her work.

I think the prevalence of Spanish on signs supports my contention that migrants- including the illegal ones - are accepted members of the society. Perhaps this is a contributing factor to feeling uncomfortable with them?

Do we have any biggies, other than that of loony racist religious leaders disparaging the mores of our culture? I read today about a sheik in Sydney who refers to all Jewish people as pigs, and says a woman in a backless dress is asking to be raped. :blink: There's a person who needs a crash course in tolerance.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
1. Tolerance isn't acceptance.

2. No one denies that migrants, illegal and legal, are accepted members of society. I just think that, sometimes, there is an effort to over-accommodate immigrants.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
1. I tolerate someone's difference, I accept they are different: both mean I'm not getting upset about it.

2. How?
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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Joe
Jan 29 2007, 04:05 AM
Your country has French and English because the natives there are either Francophones or Anglophones.

Spanish appears on signs because of immigrants, and while it's not something that just kills me, it is an annoyance. People should learn our language if they're going to live here.

Uh, no. If Canada and the U.S. had the languages of the natives, the signs would be in Cree, Cherokee, Inuktitut, etc.

English people and French people came to this place from somewhere else.

So did my people, by the way.
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Joe
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lara
Jan 29 2007, 09:05 PM
Joe
Jan 29 2007, 04:05 AM
Your country has French and English because the natives there are either Francophones or Anglophones.

Spanish appears on signs because of immigrants, and while it's not something that just kills me, it is an annoyance. People should learn our language if they're going to live here.

Uh, no. If Canada and the U.S. had the languages of the natives, the signs would be in Cree, Cherokee, Inuktitut, etc.

English people and French people came to this place from somewhere else.

So did my people, by the way.

Now you're whacking with semantics. I am a native born citizen of the United States.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
You are the native born child of an immigrant to the United States.
Unless you are a Native American.
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Regullus
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Reliant
Re: English and French signs in Canada: There's a reason for that.

As to English/Spanish - The US has had a lot of immigrants of different nationalities and languages, forinstance we have a large population of German descent. Why not German/English signs or Swedish/English. Florida has a substantial Hispanic population but there also a certain amount of Haitians, why not add French/English?

If we're going along with easing transition argument for the immigrant as the reason for bi-lingual signs (which is not the reason for most bi-lingual signs) why not other languages? In Canada, why only French and English? Could it have anything to do with the inhabitants/descendents of French origins, I will also note they have wanted/want to secede from English Canada for almost forever.

In countries where there are bi-lingual signs it usually is the native tongue, in the native alphabet and English. Why? English is the lingua franca of the time or if you wish the language of international commerce.

Again, if I moved to another country, and I chose to disregard the customs, culture, language and mores of the country, I would consider my behavior poor. If I lived in a Spanish country and I never learned even rudimentary Spanish, we would consider it rude and stupid behavior. If there were enough people who followed my example and insisted on importing Western culture to this area, we would consider it cultural imperialism. So the question becomes, why is there this unequal perception? IMO, prejudice.

In the past, people from all sorts of background managed to adapt to their new countries and at same time did leave a cultural imprint for a country's betterment.
tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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Joe
Coffea Canephora
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You are the native born child of an immigrant to the United States.


Neither of my parents were immigrants, nor anyone else in my family for several generations.

I am a native American. I'm sorry I expected you to understand the semantic nuances between that term and Native American.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Boeing
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Yellow
Joe
Jan 30 2007, 07:41 PM
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You are the native born child of an immigrant to the United States.


Neither of my parents were immigrants, nor anyone else in my family for several generations.

I am a native American. I'm sorry I expected you to understand the semantic nuances between that term and Native American.

There was a good program on a few weeks ago, named '100% British'. The fact is, I doubt anyone can say they are truly native of one county. People who 'had English ancestors for generations' were proved to have roots in Africa or the Middle East.
I want you. I want you so bad. I want you so bad it's driving me mad. She's so heavy!
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Quote:
 

There was a good program on a few weeks ago, named '100% British'. The fact is, I doubt anyone can say they are truly native of one county. People who 'had English ancestors for generations' were proved to have roots in Africa or the Middle East.


There is a difference between nativity and ancestry.

I am a native American with German, Italian, English, and Mexican history.

The term Native American only refers to a geographical context, not a cultural or national one. I am a native of the country and culture of the United States.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
Thank you for returning to polite language Joe. Native means indigenous. You are import stock. Don't feel bad. There are people who have lived in England since the Norman invasion whose credentials as English are suspect because they came from France.
(It's possible that everyone from Europe who isn't African or Middle Eastern is Celtic, I was very pleased to find out. Take that, Henry VIII.)

What is the reason for bi-lingual signs? Who is putting them up? Local councils or individuals?
Are Mexican/immigrant people ignoring customs and cultures of America? Are they importing their culture and over-riding yours? Or is it adding to the culture of America? Are they prejudiced? What examples are there of this?

We have people here that complain about areas that have become very Muslim, or Chinese, and feel intimidated by signs they can't read and halal butchers. Until they get used to going down the street to eat at the restaurants, or buy their fruit and meat there.

Immigrants suffer from very ugly discrimination when it comes to jobs and housing. They tend to live in groups for support. Some do develop prejudices against the dominant culture: that's what happens when you consistently treat people badly.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to accept that with the best will in the world, language acquisition will be beyond the ability of some: and that it isn't refusal, it's a difficulty. My brother-in-law has been learning English for 5 years now, attending classes, the whole bit. He is still difficult to understand at times. My mother-in-law finds English an incredibly difficult language, and after 40 years still struggles with it. I helped an elderly Chinese man with street directions the other day: if he was speaking English I didn't recognise it. Give 'em a break, for goodness sake.
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