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| Values and identity; Plurality or racism? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 28 2007, 03:32 AM (697 Views) | |
| Joe | Jan 31 2007, 12:22 AM Post #26 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Again, sorry I expected you to understand semantic nuances. I should have known better. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Regullus | Jan 31 2007, 01:13 AM Post #27 |
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Reliant
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The nice aspect of North American English is the North American English speaker doesn't demand English be spoken well, they don't sneer at people for butchering the Queen's English, nor deride their accents, nor their tenses nor their vocabulary as an national point of view. Most Americans and I would think Canadians too, will when faced with an indecipherable accent think, "I have no idea what he/she just said but they speak English better than I'll ever speak... " That's the general attitude and I think we differ to some degree from the rest of the world. Do North Americans never deride accents? Of course we do, we mock the Brooklyn accent, with laugh at Southern accents, we snicker as we "pawk arr cawr in Hawvahd yawrd." Ayup, we certainly do. We mock foreign accents too, like the Canadians, eh. But we are very accepting of accented English. Have you ever noticed on the forums an ESL person writes, "Forgive my English and I hope I've been able to make myself understood... " and the response, especially from the North Americans, "No, your English is very easy understand and you write far better English than I will ever write... " I've seen it repeatedly. Evi, as I recall was very dismissive when a couple of people tried to write in German. The French are infamous for their attitude to poorly spoken French, including French Canadian French or a French Patois. The reason immigrants come to a country whether it's South Africa, Australia, or Canada, is opportunity. Opportunities that aren't available to them in their own country. Why aren't these same opportunities available to them? The history, the culture, the government, and on. Strangely, not all immigrants leave their country because they hate their culture, they leave their countries because there are no opportunities or there's persecution or to survive they must leave. As to the difficulties of an immigrants' life, yes, there are difficulties and adjustments. However, there are probably less difficulties in the West, in the 21st century than there has ever been at any time in the history. There is nothing wrong with bringing your culture with you. There is something wrong with refusing to meld with your new culture. If I refuse to accept the laws and custom of a country I chose then there is something wrong with me. That said, I don't have a problem with immigration. I have a problem with illegal immigration. Could US immigration laws be reformed? I'm sure they could be but otherwise I think legal immigration is a win-win situation. IRT Are Mexicans or whoever... Yes, there are areas like that. Am I affected? No, not in the slightest but, there are states that are affected, mainly the border states. It's possible in Miami, Florida to go to stores and have nobody speak English and have all the signs in Spanish. In Miami, not Little Havana, not Little Haiti but Miami. Freedom to retain your culture has been a strong tradition in the US and there are many groups that have remained true to their cultures and maintain insularity, the Amish, for example and are respected but the Amish deal with Mainstream on the Mainstream's terms. They don't claim to be outside the law nor do they expect special priveliges outside of their stated beliefs. They maintained their heritage and their community. When the country's laws have infringed upon their community they approached the infringement within the framework of US laws. The Amish have been in the US since the 1700s. I'm sure during points in their history they have suffered discrimination. |
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| Eral | Jan 31 2007, 02:41 AM Post #28 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Get a dictionary Joe. It will make so much of the unhappiness and conflict in your life disappear. :rolleyes: Migration is legislated for a reason: and I too agree with legal migration. But I still think that once you allow illegal migrants to work for you, enrol their children in schools and rent houses, you look a bit silly when you say "OK, you all have to go home". I am still unsure about who makes the signs: is it a local government initiative, or a community action? And what is the purpose then of bi-lingual signs, if not to accomodate those learning English? (You are being unnaturally reticent on this point, Regullus. ) When all the signs are in a different language, yes that is confronting. You feel alien, different, alone. It may be that the purpose behind the signs is to make the immigrants feel they belong: not to exclude, but to feel un-alien themselves. (There's also the idea that some things don't translate well.) How do you show you meld with your new culture? What do you actually have to do to prove you accept the culture? What are Spanish people doing that is different to the Amish? |
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| Joe | Jan 31 2007, 02:52 AM Post #29 |
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Coffea Canephora
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na·tive /ˈneɪtɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ney-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. being the place or environment in which a person was born or a thing came into being: one's native land. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/native |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Jan 31 2007, 03:18 AM Post #30 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Feel better now?
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| Joe | Jan 31 2007, 03:19 AM Post #31 |
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Coffea Canephora
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It always feels good to prove you wrong. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Jan 31 2007, 03:51 AM Post #32 |
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Kopi Luwak
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:lol: Then you really shouldn't provide content supporting my view. Here's the rest of the definition. 1. being the place or environment in which a person was born or a thing came into being: one's native land. 2. belonging to a person by birth or to a thing by nature; inherent: native ability; native grace. 3. belonging by birth to a people regarded as indigenous to a certain place, esp. a preliterate people: Native guides accompanied the expedition through the rain forest. 4. of indigenous origin, growth, or production: native pottery. 5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the indigenous inhabitants of a place or country: native customs; native dress. 6. born in a particular place or country: a native New Yorker. 7. of or pertaining to a language acquired by a person before or to the exclusion of any other language: Her native language is Greek. 8. pertaining to or characteristic of a person using his or her native language: a native speaker of English; native command of a language. 9. under the rule of natives: a native government. 10. occupied by natives: the native quarter of Algiers. 11. remaining or growing in a natural state; unadorned or unchanged: the native beauty of a desert island. 12. forming the source or origin of a person or thing: He returned to his native Kansas. 13. originating naturally in a particular country or region, as animals or plants. 14. found in nature rather than produced artificially, as a mineral substance: the difference between native and industrial diamonds. 15. Chemistry, Mineralogy. (of metals) occurring in nature pure or uncombined: native copper. 16. belonging to a person as a birthright: to deprive a person of his native rights. 17. Computers. a. designed for use with a specific type of computer: writing native applications for 32-bit PCs. b. internal to a specific application program: to view the file in its native format. 18. Archaic. closely related, as by birth. –noun 19. one of the people indigenous to a place or country, esp. as distinguished from strangers, foreigners, colonizers, etc.: the natives of Chile. 20. a person born in a particular place or country: a native of Ohio. 21. an organism indigenous to a particular region. 22. British. an oyster reared in British waters, esp. in an artificial bed. 23. Astrology. a person born under a particular planet. |
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| Regullus | Jan 31 2007, 04:10 AM Post #33 |
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Reliant
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Language in the United States
*Thought it interesting. |
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| lara | Jan 31 2007, 04:16 AM Post #34 |
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Kopi Luwak
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No, as a matter of fact, I wasn't talking semantics. I was born in Canada and my first language was German. My parents were born in Canada and their first language was German. My grandparents were born in Russia and their first language was German - in fact, when my grandmothers came to Canada, they only spoke German and none of my relatives spoke English when they came here. My maternal grandfather had an accent so thick that my friends had a hard time understanding him. Am I a native Canadian by your definition? I really don't know. French appears on signs in Canada for political and historical reasons, as does English. In Chinatown, Chinese appears on signs because that's the language a lot of people in Chinatown speak. Frankly, I think the explanation for the Chinese signs is far more sensible. If the "natives" here are "either Francophones or Anglophones," what are the First Nations peoples? What am I? (edited to add:) My first response to your original post was not about semantics; it was about what I read, and how I felt about it. You say the natives of this country are Anglophones and Francophones; I do not understand what, in your opinion, makes them natives of this country, but not me, not aboriginal Canadians. If being first does it, it should be aboriginal Canadians. If being born here does it, then the natives are not Anglophones and Francophones; in fact, I don't think they're even the majority anymore. |
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| Eral | Jan 31 2007, 04:32 AM Post #35 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I guess there's a few of us who don't understand nuance. Regullus: those documents show an acceptance of cultural difference by the dominant culture. So, bi-lingual signs are a celebration of different origins, one country? Then they're good. The "entire blocks with only Spanish" seems insular though. Unless we are talking about real ghettoes. |
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| Joe | Jan 31 2007, 04:35 AM Post #36 |
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Coffea Canephora
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You're an idiot. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| lara | Jan 31 2007, 04:39 AM Post #37 |
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Kopi Luwak
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From: http://www.justiceforimmigrants.org/myths.html Today’s immigrants are different than those of 100 years ago The percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign-born now stands at 11.5%; in the early 20th century it was approximately 15%. Similar to accusations about today’s immigrants, those of 100 years ago initially often settled in mono-ethnic neighborhoods, spoke their native languages, and built up newspapers and businesses that catered to their fellow émigrés. They also experienced the same types of discrimination that today’s immigrants face, and integrated within American culture at a similar rate. If we view history objectively, we remember that every new wave of immigrants has been met with suspicion and doubt and yet, ultimately, every past wave of immigrants has been vindicated and saluted. Joe: What about my questions? |
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| lara | Jan 31 2007, 04:40 AM Post #38 |
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Kopi Luwak
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More from that website: Immigrants don’t want to learn English or become Americans Within ten years of arrival, more than 75% of immigrants speak English well; moreover, demand for English classes at the adult level far exceeds supply. Greater than 33% of immigrants are naturalized citizens; given increased immigration in the 1990s, this figure will rise as more legal permanent residents become eligible for naturalization in the coming years. The number of immigrants naturalizing spiked sharply after two events: enactment of immigration and welfare reform laws in 1996, and the terrorist attacks in 2001. |
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| lara | Jan 31 2007, 04:52 AM Post #39 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I wish I still had the quiz I took as part of my sensitivity training when I worked for the City of Winnipeg Parks and Recreation department. It asked us to pretend we had to move somewhere like Saudi Arabia for economic reasons - it was the only place we could find jobs to support our families properly. Then it asked questions. I wish I had them all, but I seem to remember them being something like this: When you move to the country... Do you continue to eat Western foods at home? Do you continue to speak English at home? If you have relatives or friends in the country, do you live with or near them? Do you buy a house in a neighbourhood where there are people from Canada? Do you speak to people from Canada in English? Do you wear Western clothing when you feel it's acceptable? Do you speak English to your children? Then it asks the same types of questions for after five years, after ten years. I gave the predictable answer to almost everything. |
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| Joe | Jan 31 2007, 05:29 AM Post #40 |
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Coffea Canephora
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You're a native Canadian nonetheless.
What kinds of signs are we talking about? Businesses or street signs, etc?
You're all native Canadians. I mentioned Francophones and Anglophones because you said signs are in French and English. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Jan 31 2007, 07:32 AM Post #41 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Awww. :( And you were doing so well, saying stuff that was funny. You've got to resist the urge to back slide. Calling me an idiot is pedestrian. It suggests that you are experiencing a high degree of frustration and anger: and exposes you to the charge of a lack of imagination. Also, it means the discussion is over, because you are floundering so badly you have to resort to personal abuse. (Keep it to a seperate thread. Re-open the Quandary thread, or start a new one.) Being of a nationality is about where you are born. We can differentiate between colonials and indigenous, migrant citizens and native born: but not to indicate a superior right to be there. lara's posts show what's really true about migration: I need to send Little Johnny a copy of them. |
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| Regullus | Jan 31 2007, 03:47 PM Post #42 |
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Reliant
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All this semantic talk opens the question when does one stop being an immigrant? Can one ever become a native? On my maternal side, we have relatives going back to the 17th century in the US. On my paternal side, my father had American relatives going back to the 17th century on the maternal side but on his father's side was Danish of Dutch descent. Was my grandfather more Danish or Dutch? You know they say that 40 million people or more are descendents of Ghegis Khan. Ok, they're descendents but are they related? I don't think so, in animal breeding there would no relation unless there had been a lot of inbreeding. Or, are you native born if you are 10% Cree or are you an immigrant? What race are you? Has become a big question in the US in recent years which had results on the design of the census. In essence, you could choose your race. My husband is 25% Puerto Rican/Indian, 25% Spanish and 50% German. For my husband, he's all about the Puerto Rican side. I culturally identify with the US although my father did bring some minor Danish customs to the family. My father was exceptional linguistically and spoke twelve languages fluently, he spoke in unaccented English and became a naturalized US citizen at seventeen. Now, Alarielle, who is a registered member and may still pop in occasionally, is a young Scottish girl and she thought it was silly and I think a little offensive too, if a US citizen claimed Scots descent. To touch on some points of lara's: First, not to be rude and I haven't been able to open your link yet but I think a site called 'justice for immigrants,' may be a pro immigrant site. Two, the sensitivity questionaire, I don't think anyone has said that an immigrant must give up all ties to their cultures and become monolithically whatever and completely submerged in the new culture. I'm not even sure it's such a bad thing to be insular, after all, there are many examples of insular communities in the US but these communities live within their own culture and they accomodate the mainstream. The Amish, live their ideals and by example show the rest of us how they live but they don't try to get the rest of the US to live that way and try and change the laws and culture. They also give their people the opportunity to choose the mainstream or their way of life. Many of these communities of this insular nature do not give the choice although the choice may be made. Say you send your daughter to Germany to learn German and about Germany. You place her with a German family and she goes to a German school however, she spends all her time with fellow Canadians and worse yet, Americans and returns after six months with barely rudimentary German. While you sympathize with her homesickness, are you the least bit disappointed with her for not making better use of the opportunity? Another example, a fellow Canadian goes to work for a Canadian company in India for a year. They come back after a year, and you ask them about their experience. He replies, "I thought it was going to be a great experience and I would have time to learn the culture and about the country but all I did was work, I didn't have much free time and sure I met some of the natives and I had some Indian food but that's about it. Really disappointed!" Same circumstances but the reply is different: "I felt really out of place and I basically hung out in the ex-pat community. I never even met a native. I think I had Indian food once. The culture was so different and overwhelming!" Another reply: "I just hated it. Couldn't stand it. The people, the smells, if I see another plate of Indian food, I'm going to vom. Luckily, I didn't have to spend much time with the natives. Thankfully, there was an ex-pat community and I didn't have to deal with the locals much!" It's all a matter on how an individual approaches the situation. Today, in the West, most immigrants choose to come to a country for the opportunities the country offers. To hark back to Eral's "We allow them... " They choose your country because of what your country can offer them. Don't you find it the least bit offensive that some yabo comes to your country for its opportunities and then announces grandly that his goal is to put it under Sharia law? I do. I also think he's an idiot and I sure hope it doesn't come to pass. We have people proselytising here, "My goal is to see every woman on Fifth Avenue wearing a burka (isn't there an h?)." My conclusion, the guy's not trying to adapt. |
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| Bex | Jan 31 2007, 04:20 PM Post #43 |
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puppet dictator
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I don't have much to say about this because it is all so subjective. In a casual exchange, you have no way of knowing if another person hasn't made an effort, or if they've actually tried very hard but are still struggling. If anything, perception comes down to attitude, but this goes both ways. |
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I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should, but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed. -Min Jin Lee | |
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| Joe | Jan 31 2007, 11:42 PM Post #44 |
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Coffea Canephora
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As usual I agree with Regullus. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Feb 1 2007, 02:10 AM Post #45 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Read: I am really grateful to Regullus for saying something logical and rational that sounds like my viewpoint, only smarter, and I will go with that. :rolleyes: As usual, please. :lol: I have an example of an unreconstructed migrant. My father has lived in this country for 50 years: he refuses to take out Australian citizenship, and is greatly offended when someone suggests he should. Definitely falls into "send him back" criteria. This may be why I am very comfortable with the Spanish, Lebanese, Italian and Vietnamese enclaves all over the place. I like the diversity, and the sense of a piece of another little world. Though lara's site is a (horrors!) pro-immigration site, and yes, has an agenda, I am still willing to accept the figures, as probably its agenda is to quieten some of the suspicion against migrants. The nuts like Sheikh Feiz Mohamed are a different group: Religious Loonies. They should be discussed under that heading, along with the Exclusive Brethren and Catch the Fire preachers. Are there any other examples of migrants having a bad attitude and not contributing? No. Therefore I boldly say, we do not need to fear our culture is being eroded, because it isn't. Except by our own politicians who are disassembling our political freedoms and basic structures of our society like social welfare, education and health. |
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| lara | Feb 1 2007, 03:34 AM Post #46 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Joe, this was the quote that started our discussion. Well, we took it to the point where I am a native Canadian. So what's wrong with signs appearing in German, then? And why not Cree and Ojibway and Inuktitut? There are a lot of Chinese families here who have been here longer than my family has been here, and many of them came to build the Canadian National Railway, which was a defining act for our country. Why should I get ticked if the signs are in their language? Oh, and those French Canadians? They were defeated by the British a long, long, long time ago, but it's illegal in Quebec to put up signs where French is not the most prominent language. I think that's ridiculous, and I don't think we should have any laws of the sort. Having bilingual signs - and in Canada, it extends to packaging on just about everything, down to the washing instructions on the tags in our clothing - is an opportunity to learn. |
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| lara | Feb 1 2007, 03:59 AM Post #47 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I don't know how much you know about the Amish, but I wouldn't say they accommodate the mainstream. They believe very much in rendering under Caesar that which is Caesar's, but giving to God that which is God's - including themselves. They will not respect the draft. They have their own schools. Their children are generally pulled out of school as soon as legally possible. They speak their own language, they have little to nothing to do with outsiders. Yes, you may choose to leave the community - but then you are no longer part of the community in any way. A shunning is not something to be taken lightly. They wear their own clothes, which are very much a statement of their apartness from the rest of society. The lack of mustaches and buttons has its roots as a statement against militarism, in an age when mustaches and brass buttons were associated with the military. I'd suggest that if they were newcomers - mainstream America wasn't accustomed to them and knowledgeable about their belief system - they would be treated very, very badly. |
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| lara | Feb 1 2007, 04:06 AM Post #48 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Of course I am disappointed. I sent her there to learn German and about Germany. If I'd sent her there to earn money and she earned money, I probably wouldn't be disappointed. If I sent her there to save her from being killed or half-starved or having absolutely no chance at an education here, I'd be happy she wasn't killed, ate well or got an education. The reasons for immigration are many and varied. Go back far enough, and most of us came to North America for either filthy lucre or because there wasn't a better option. My family came here because they were landed, educated Germans stuck in the middle of the Russian revolution. All of the men in my maternal grandmother's family were killed, and most of the women were sent to Siberia. My grandmother learned English because she paid for her passage by working as a maid for an English woman. All four of my grandparents spoke only German if they were speaking with fellow German-speakers. My maternal grandparents only ever spoke English because their grandchildren struggled with German, and even then, they often spoke German. |
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| lara | Feb 1 2007, 04:11 AM Post #49 |
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Kopi Luwak
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They took from the country what they wanted. Honestly? I've always wondered why people go to all-inclusive resorts where their only contact with the people who live in the place is with the person who brings them their drinks. I don't get it, but it's something they enjoy. But I'd still be homesick if I had to live in India for a year. I'd seek out places where I could speak English and eat food from home. Heck, I moved across my own country and sought out a Mennonite church I could attend. I love it there. People with my values, who speak about peace in the loving tones I'm accustomed to. Now, if they'd only sing in German regularly, I'd have a place where I really felt at home. |
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| lara | Feb 1 2007, 04:18 AM Post #50 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I'm not sure why most immigrants come to Canada, but if it's for the opportunities, I certainly hope they are coming purely for the opportunities their children will find, because there really aren't many opportunities here. We have a points-based immigration system. If you're not a refugee (in which case, your motivation for coming here is very different), you generally have to be well-educated and/or have money to get into Canada, but you probably won't get work in your field. Immigrants to Canada are better-educated, on average, than Canadians, but have three times the poverty rate. Finding a PhD driving a cab is certainly not unheard of, because they can't get people to accept their qualifications. On the other hand, I do know why Canada encourages immigration. We need workers. We need people to do the jobs that aren't filled by Canadians; we need people to offset our dropping birthrate. I have never seen a study that shows that immigrants hurt an economy. In fact, immigration helps economies. And I have never heard anyone say their goal is to put Canada under Sharia law. I have certainly heard people rattle on and on about Christianity being one of the core values of our country and immigrants have to accept that and blah blah blah blah blah, but I have never heard a Muslim say that Canada should follow sharia law. There are some Muslims who say they should be allowed to incorporate aspects of sharia into the justice system when dealing with minor infractions within their own community - and there are, as far as I can tell, just as many Muslims hollering back, "Don't you dare!" |
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6:59 PM Jul 11