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Values and identity; Plurality or racism?
Topic Started: Jan 28 2007, 03:32 AM (696 Views)
Joe
Coffea Canephora
Quote:
 

Joe, this was the quote that started our discussion.


Oh, yes. Well I used those terms for two reasons: 1) because they are the great majority of people, and 2) because those are the two aspects of Canadian culture.

Quote:
 

Well, we took it to the point where I am a native Canadian. So what's wrong with signs appearing in German, then? And why not Cree and Ojibway and Inuktitut?


Those elements are not part of Canadian culture. That your people chose not to participate in Canadian culture doesn't mean you're not a native Canadian.
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Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
http://www.janeelliott.com/statements.htm

John Howard has made many of these statements. <_<
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Eral, the grown-ups are having a discussion. Run along now. We'll let you know when we'll discuss Dr. Seuss books.
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Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
Isn't the point though that given the widescale immigration/emigration and colonisation that has gone on to make country borders a political rather than physical barrier that the concept of natonal identity is now a very murky one?

So when deciding how people should fit in is not black-and-white. You might think that just because you live in England you should speak English to a point, but you don't have to. Letters from my council come with 12 languages on the back telling them where to get translations in their language, digital TV broadcasts Asian TV, and there are some areas of London where you will be hard-pressed to find a white person and where English is 99% not spoken.

Just sort of saying there is not always a need to learn the native language whatever that may be.
"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Boeing
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Joe
Feb 1 2007, 07:25 AM
Eral, the grown-ups are having a discussion. Run along now. We'll let you know when we'll discuss Dr. Seuss books.

Why troll?
I want you. I want you so bad. I want you so bad it's driving me mad. She's so heavy!
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Joe
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Krazy
Feb 1 2007, 01:06 AM
Isn't the point though that given the widescale immigration/emigration and colonisation that has gone on to make country borders a political rather than physical barrier that the concept of natonal identity is now a very murky one?

So when deciding how people should fit in is not black-and-white. You might think that just because you live in England you should speak English to a point, but you don't have to. Letters from my council come with 12 languages on the back telling them where to get translations in their language, digital TV broadcasts Asian TV, and there are some areas of London where you will be hard-pressed to find a white person and where English is 99% not spoken.

Just sort of saying there is not always a need to learn the native language whatever that may be.

And I'm saying that the government should not print documents in 12 languages.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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lara
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Joe
Feb 1 2007, 04:56 AM
Quote:
 

Joe, this was the quote that started our discussion.


Oh, yes. Well I used those terms for two reasons: 1) because they are the great majority of people, and 2) because those are the two aspects of Canadian culture.

Quote:
 

Well, we took it to the point where I am a native Canadian. So what's wrong with signs appearing in German, then? And why not Cree and Ojibway and Inuktitut?


Those elements are not part of Canadian culture. That your people chose not to participate in Canadian culture doesn't mean you're not a native Canadian.

And I am saying that those are NOT THE two aspects of Canadian culture. I am saying that aboriginal Canadians are a big part of Canadian culture - heck, they gave us the names of many of the places, many of our other words, too, like igloo and tobaggan and canoe. I am saying that the Germans and the Chinese and the Ghanaians are part of Canadian culture. Who are you to say that German, Cree, Ojibway, Inuktitut are not part of Canadian culture? Who are you to say that my family did not participate in Canadian culture?

I prize the openness and freedom of my country. I prize the way we celebrate difference, instead of stifle it. THOSE are, in my opinion, Canadian culture. And I am thankful for that.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
There is a difference between contributing to a larger culture and actually being a part of it.

In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Krazy
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England has a problem, firstly it is part of the EU, so any EU citizen is perfectly entitles to come live here and secondly thanks to its colonial aspirations people from all over the Commonwealth have made it their home. Huge areas of all the major cities have Asian communities and it would be impossible to make them all speak English.

It is not unknown to have primary schools where there are 30+ languages spoken by the different children as their primary language.

You just cannot ignore such huge swathes of the population and be so dismissive about their needs.

Right on, Lara
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
What needs?
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Krazy
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Language needs for one, as you said they should stop printing documents in so many languages and make it English only.
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Regullus
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Reliant
Basically this is in reply to various points raised by various people but I'll probably digress.

In the US, pacificism has been accepted if not always respected. Various groups and of course, individuals have claimed pacificism and if provable is today an accepted reason to reject the draft (Yes, I know we don't have a draft atm! <_< ) or to get out of military service. I know people have been jailed in the past or otherwise punished, sometimes capital punishment, although I think that was more for military related crimes - I have some vague recollection of a military capital punishment meted out... googling.

Okay, I am, as usual, after following vaguely related links, totally distracted from the original search and am now reading about crimes committed by US soldiers stationed in Great Britain during WW2. 18 men were executed for crimes such as murder and rape and 72% of those executed were minorities.

In other words, completely distracted from the topic by the history of US military executions which has no real relevancy to the topic at hand. However, I can tell you that the last US military (specifically Army. The Navy ceased executions in the 19th century) execution took place in 1961 and was for a rape and attempted murder.

BBL

Edited for clarity: I had a dim recollection of Private SLovik being the last soldier executed for pacisfism but he was executed for desertion and was the only soldier executed for desertion in WW2. I started a search of Slovik and was planning on continuing a search on the acceptance of pacifism throughout US history but I became distracted by military executions in general. Still have nothing further to add on the thread topic, atm. :D

See entry in Random Links for further details.
tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Krazy
Feb 2 2007, 02:32 AM
Language needs for one, as you said they should stop printing documents in so many languages and make it English only.

Maybe not English only, but 12 languages is far too extensive.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Re: pacifism--I think you'll have hard time claiming pacifism after you've already joined the military.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
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Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Joe
Feb 2 2007, 04:06 AM
There is a difference between contributing to a larger culture and actually being a part of it.

I have no idea what you mean by this.
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Regullus
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Reliant
In theory, I have no problem with either individuals or groups who wish to retain ties to their culture but on the other hand, it has to be said if too many choose to isolate themselves from the greater culture that they live within, you eventually are going to lose national identity and instead of your country becoming the greater from outside influences, a country can be ultimately diminished. Many people point to unassimilated immigration as the greatest factor in the fall of culture and countries. Japan, certainly, for many centuries remained a closed society for exactly that fear, the influence and potential domination of outside sources. 'Course, totally simplifying.

Anyway, I think there is worrying anectdotal evidence of unassimiliated groups which are causing disruption and cost to societies. France is certainly having problems at the moment. Many would say deserved problems. In the US, I would say the same social disruption came in 60s and as for the future? South Africa's population has increased dramatically since the end of apartheid and the country can't handle the immigration and since the fall of aparthied social ills has increased exponentially.

Basically my point, in answer to Eral's "unreasonable fears" conclusion about immigration, is no, I don't think it's unreasonable fear. I think there are many real issues and concerns and historically, there are countries and cultures that were assimiliated by their immigrants.

The US takes in 1,000,000 people a year legally, a fraction of our population. If a person confines themselves either by circumstance or is forced to confine themselves as is said about France, eventually, you are going to have large pockets of unassimilated people who live and suffer outside the society and this disenfranchisment is eventually going to cause problems. As it is difficult to point to identifying characteristic of a sex as we have discussed elsewhere it is also difficult to pinpoint easily what exactly are the identifiers of a country. Is France simply wine, cheese and haute couture? No, the national character is harder to define.

How does one know when a citizen has been acculturated? It's not if they speak the language. I could move to Puerto Rico, learn Spanish and enjoy the Commonwealth but I will never be Puerto Rican, a child of mine would possibly be on the surface have clearly identifiable traits but probably not be a true Puerto Rican either. I like many aspects of the Puerto Rican culture but I could live there for 50 years and never become a Puerto Rican. Am I unusual? I doubt it. Would I be a problem citizen to Puerto Rico? Probably not, I probably be a good citizen but true assimilation would take at least another generation or two.
tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Perhaps my view is coloured, in part, by the fact that my culture has remained an unassimilated part of another culture for hundreds of years...

I think, Reg, that your choice of South Africa as an example was unfortunate. I think there are many people in that country who would say that social ills are not increasing; they're just recognized, now. The same could be said for the U.S. in the 1960s - the ills were there, just unrecognized. I can't say I know much about the situation in France. I have, however, on occasion been quite shocked by what I see as the cultural isolationism, sometimes to the point of racism, of many Europeans.

I really can't tell you what the Canadian national identity is, to tell the truth. When people base it around something more than ideals - freedom, acceptance, tolerance, etc. - I find that I am not part of that identity. The English sometimes want to claim the country as their own, but other than a certain love for queueing up and an ability in the language, I don't identify with that culture. I identify even less with the French.

So I have a hard time saying someone else's cultural norms, outside some fundmental values, aren't part of mine; that speaking another language and hanging out with people who were born somewhere else and speak another language makes a person less Canadian.

Like I said, my family did that for hundreds of years.
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Regullus
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Reliant
I certainly didn't mean to imply SA had no social ills during Apartheid. I was using it as example as how immigration can put a burden on a country especially when social services are poor. Migrants in both SA and the US do take away jobs from the poorest members of society.

South Africa had a large underclass and this underclass is not helped by an increase in immigration because it is adding to the underclass and taking opportunities from the natives.

In the US, I think our immigration problems come from illegal immigration which is estimated to be anywhere from 5 - 20+ million. Now my main concern with illegal immigration is it takes away opportunity from poor members of society and it leads to exploitation of the illegal. I'm for legal immigration as a way to protect people's rights.

Again, if you have a segment of a country's population that remains isolated from the mainstream, for a variety of reasons, at some point this will lead to problems.

I would agree with you, I think what happened in the 60s pre-existed and was a long term problem which culminated in the '60s.

In short, to dismiss concerns about immigration solely as a phobia is to give short shrift a situation which can be problematic and if too many people live isolated from the mainstream that causes real problems within a society and has historically affected nations and culture and led to the destruction of cultures.

To be confrontational, it's akin to reacting to concerns about the Israeli/Palestinian situation and being told that concerns are simply based on anti-Semiticism or anti-Muslism. Both isms exist, as has been seen but to be forbidden the expression of concern and have it dismissed simply as predjudice is wrong and prohibits discussion of real issues and concerns.

As to the Mennonites in particular, frankly, I don't know enough to comment, however, while it sounds as if you have maintained strong cultural ties, you also sound as if you are acculturated to Canada. You work within the mainstream of the culture... I was going to go on but I'm not sure what facilities your daughter goes to and I don't know if you married a fellow Mennonite or not. Will your daughter go to Mennonite schools or Canadian schools or both? I don't know the specifics of your life. To me, you do sound as if you are assimiliated into Canadian culture. :unsure:

tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Oh, I am, as much as many people, anyway. But my family lived in relative isolation from mainstream Russian culture for 150 years, and my grandparents weren't exactly assimmilated into Canadian culture. I also have some pretty radical ideas for a member of mainstream Canadian culture.

Thing is, we are living in a world that is more and more a global community, and we're going to have to get used to the ideas of other cultures and living with them. When a community is isolated, whose fault is that? Sometimes, it is the fault (or choice) of the people in the community, but when the "mainstream" won't accommodate others, it is also the fault of the mainstream.

And people have been saying these types of things about immigrants for generations. The only change, in many ways, is the colour and country of origin of the immigrants - and the fact that some of the people taking issue with immigration are descendents of people who were, in the past, the immigrants (i.e. the Irish in the U.S., the Ukrainians in Canada, etc.).
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Bex
puppet dictator
lara
Feb 4 2007, 09:03 PM
And people have been saying these types of things about immigrants for generations. The only change, in many ways, is the colour and country of origin of the immigrants - and the fact that some of the people taking issue with immigration are descendents of people who were, in the past, the immigrants (i.e. the Irish in the U.S., the Ukrainians in Canada, etc.).

Will Eisner (a great comic writer and artist for whom the prestigious Eisner Awards are named) wrote a book about this, called Life on Dropsie Avenue. It looks at a fictional street in New York over time, from the earliest settlers to modern days, how the population and perspectives change, and how the street changes from a few farms to a suburb to an urban area to a ghetto and back to a suburb. It's a good story. Eisner was skilled at depicting people in a manner that was sympathetic but unsentimental, and critical without being unfair.
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Regullus
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Reliant
IRT to lara - I can't say I disagree with the substance but I continue to disagree that is simply a phobia. I think there are a very real concerns and not just for the prevailing culture.


tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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Krazy
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I haz powah!
Perhaps its the way of things that some facets of national identity do get eroded over times as the population becomes more diverse. I don't think there is an inherent problem there if the population's ideals generally coincide.
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Boeing
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Yellow
Krazy
Feb 5 2007, 09:20 PM
Perhaps its the way of things that some facets of national identity do get eroded over times as the population becomes more diverse. I don't think there is an inherent problem there if the population's ideals generally coincide.

This being a good example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala
I want you. I want you so bad. I want you so bad it's driving me mad. She's so heavy!
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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Oh, man, there are a lot of restaurants that make me bless the immigrant population in Canada. Most of my favourite restaurants have been run by immigrants. Heck, the only restaurant I ever worked at was run by immigrants. I am forever grateful to immigrants for bringing us something other than English cuisine.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
No one said immigration is bad.

My girlfriend is an immigrant.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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