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Dispensing with Falsities
Topic Started: Feb 13 2007, 08:50 AM (648 Views)
Eral
Kopi Luwak
It's only a hijacking if the person who created the thread doesn't join in the new discussion.
This was more a tangential diversion. I have a gift for them. :lol:

Patrick seems to be a very sweet boy. There is a certain dissonance between his torn t-shirt and inability to handle a swiss army knife without cutting himself. :lol: Who is he, and why was he being interviewed about stuffed toys? :unsure:
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Krazy
Member Avatar
I haz powah!
Marmite tea? :yuck:

Hackney is in East London - not a very nice area either, one of the worst boroughs in London.
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Bex
puppet dictator
Patrick is a musician. Not necessarily a very well-known one, but I adore him.
http://www.myspace.com/officialpatrickwolf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5kMS2q1iww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsBG-KWhV9g
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
This thread was MUCH MORE FUN when it was about Marmite.

Joe, do you think at all? Is your opinion SO important that you can voice it without regard for anything? What kind of arrogant, short-sighted momzer are you?

12 year olds use the term "gay" to denote something odd. Not grown ups. I believe you've been told this, but for some reason you don't care to change your offensive tone.
Boring and stupid and unacceptable.

Your offensive remark about another religion is another display of your pedestrian and unimaginative thought processes - who do you steal your lines from? Rush Limbaugh?
By all means, cling to your simplistic views, your head might hurt if you tried to widen your understanding. But if you have nothing further to add to the discussion, then spare us further offence.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Replace "grown-ups" with "people over the age of 30" and I'll agree with you.

Who cares about offending people if what I am saying is the truth? Fact is, Islamic culture *is* barbaric, and it *has* barbarized nations.

Look at the history of Iran and what it was before Islam sought to destroy its greatness.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Bex
puppet dictator
One look at Islamic architecture or garden design gives the lie to it being a barbaric culture.
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Were the Nazis any less barbaric because of their technological advantages and efficiency?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Bex
puppet dictator
I don't believe that all, or even most, German people of that time period were monstrous. They were simply people. You can't just write off an entire population based on the actions of a segment of it.

Here, Eral. Watch Patrick wax charming on the subject of one of his favorite disco songs from his teen years. It'll take the edge off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu11nEMZy1c
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
But this monstrous sentiment is quite bit more prevalent than Nazism was among Germans, and has been around for a lot longer than just a period.

What do you mean the actions of a segment? I'm not just talking about terrorism, I'm talking about laws and cultural beliefs.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Krazy
Member Avatar
I haz powah!
If anything in the middle ages, the Islamic culture was the one that promoted academia and civilisation whereas it was the Christians who were happily putting other religions to the sword in the name of God. And in more modern times it's not hard to interpret the invasion of Iraq as barbaric, so it hardly seems fair to label a whole religion like that barbaric.

My point is that it's thinking like that, that allows those who would commit the atrocities to justify it. The vast majority of (westernised) Muslims are lawful peace abiding citizens who condemn the actions of the extremists. So why label them as "barbaric"?
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Europeans didn't do barbaric things because of Christianity; they had a pretty savage record well before the introduction of that religion. Much of those things were quite un-Christian, anyway. We grew out of all that crap eventually.

The Iraq war was wrong, but I'm not sure I see anything barbaric about it.

The people who commit atrocities are not extremists, These atrocities are codified in their laws and values.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu11nEMZy1c
It certainly does take the edge off. I particularly like the bit where he dances with his mum, or whoever that lady is. :)

Joe: if you were stating facts, it wouldn't be offensive. You are stating an opinion - an ignorant and ugly one, but no surprise there - and once again can't come up with a shred of evidence to back it up.
I'm not going to bother with your last statements: they are absolutely laughable. I'm glad you've said something funny, though.
I point out that you didn't answer Krazy's question: why label people of a religious belief as a whole? Which is the point.
You display the same ignorance and prejudice of the people you judge as inferior to you. You are terribly depressing.

I am now going to watch Patrick again. He's such a nice boy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu11nEMZy1c
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
If there's something particular you want to challenge, then go ahead and point it out.

Their religion says X; they are firm believers in their religion; therefore, they belief X. This why I talk about them in general.

The Muslims who soften their beliefs when they move to Western countries do so because of our cultural influence on them, not because they suddenly think that they've been interpreting their religion incorrectly.

Those who don't change are simply standing by their religion.

The key here is change. Where do they come from that is different from our societies? They come from places where women are legally subhuman, and people of other faiths are second class citizens; they come from places where it is illegal to leave Islam under pain of death,
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
Good to see you have restrained yourself from further abuse: I have responded to your argument in the Fanatic thread. I like to keep this thread for venting.

And Patrick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu11nEMZy1c
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
Ok, this one's actually funny. :lol:
He alleges menopause has affected my thinking. Let's leave aside the fact that The Change is a good ten, fifteen years off for me, if my mother's experience is anything to go by :and by all medical accounts, it is.
Let's also leave aside that The Change was a very undramatic process for my mum, who had no problems with sleeplessness or Power Surges and went so far as to suggest that menopause was complete nonsense and she didn't know what the fuss was.
A friend of mine did go completely whacko around 55, did not cope with the hormonal changes at all well, but had been seriously deranged for some time before The Change, so I'm not sure if it was the main offender.
As I haven't noticed menopause deleteriously affecting the mental processes of any of the numerous 50+ women I have worked with over the years, I am somewhat surprised to find that it holds currency at all.
But that's because I work with women for the main part, and de-valuing women because they are no longer nubiles is not a big part of the psyche of the people I hang around with.

I am delighted to find Mr.I Love Women once more having a go at a woman using the assumption that female biology is faulty and suspect. And with the added bonus of the stigma of being an OLD woman. It's funny, because when women are fertile they are de-valued for it. It's that old "women are always wrong" thing.

I am honoured that I have achieved the status of Old Woman. I take it as a tribute to my wisdom and acquired knowledge. If I am supposed to feel bad about getting fat and middle-aged and grey-haired, I hate to disappoint you, but I don't. (I'm not thrilled about the fat part, but life's like that.) Fat clothes and hair dye were invented for a reason.
Being young sucked. I like being old much better. I am the happiest now I have ever been. I am loved, financially secure, engaged in fulfilling work, and have opportunities for leisure and luxury.
Menopause? Bring it on! Having a period is a complete nuisance.

And now, to deal with the rest of the idiocies of the Nest Quoter.

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QUOTE 
Joe: your capacity for endlessly repeating yourself makes me think you have your keyboard set on automatic.

It's not my fault I have to repeat myself to get my point across.

"It's not my fault"? :blink: Yes it is! "He made me do it!" is recognised by 8 year olds as void as an excuse for behaviour.
I cannot believe you think trotting out the exact same line to three different people, asking the same questions over and over and never answering any is a situation beyond your control.


Quote:
 
QUOTE 
You haven't stopped believing. What a piss weak renunciation!
*gratutitious insult about Eral's fertility here*

What about my "renunciation" is not acceptable for you? What about it is insincere or phony
?


See that red bit I highlighted? Having reached that time of life when it's a bit hard to not fornicate, and contraception is really a good idea, you are caught in the classic Catholic trap. (See why I'm happy to be old?) You haven't renounced any of your beliefs: you are observing them. "I can't be Catholic if I *insert sin here* and as I am *insert sin here* I must ex-communicate myself.

If you were saying, "I cannot believe that *insert sin here* is a sin", or "I believe Il Papa is wrong on *insert theology*" then you'd be having a renunciation, or spiritual belief crisis. And being normal. But you're not. You are still following the rules; therefore you are still Catholic. And I am deeply, deeply disappointed at your lack of moral courage.

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Having realised that the rules you have imposed on yourself are impossible to live by (duh!) you are claiming to have given up religion.

No, not impossible. I just don't see a reason to live my life as Christian anymore than I see a reason to live by Muhammad or Zeus.

Yep, you just woke up one day, and while still espousing firm belief in all the tenets of Faith, are not Catholic anymore.
Nice try on avoiding damnation, but according to the rules, you are toast, barbecue, cinders. Good luck trying to work out your new life as an apostate.

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QUOTE 
Christianity is a forgiving father. He forgives your sins if you repent.

Repentance being the key. You, however, seem to think that none of us have anything for which to repent

I have discussed my views on repentance with you extensively. For some reason, you are unable to understand my most simple statements and insist on making up beliefs for me. You are, of course, completely entitled to keep on doing this, but you look stupid every time you do.

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QUOTE 
Do you believe religion means obedience to a set of rules and reward in the afterlife, or a guide to making choices in this life?

Isn't it obviously both?


No. Not everybody believes in the after-life. Not all of us want to act out of fear of possible retribution. Some of us think that being made in God's image means we can exercise our conscience in good faith.

I'm glad you are getting the point about interpretation: people decide on stuff and live by that. And other people then denounce them and use those differences as an excuse for hatred and mistrust and cruelty. And racism.

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QUOTE 
You can condemn the religion, or the person.

It depends on the situation.


Your failure to illustrate such a situation indicates that you can't think of one, and rather than acknowledge that I have made a valid point - because being out-thought by a menopausal sexually unattractive fat old woman sets off all your I-have-a-little-dick-and-am-sexually-inadequate irrationalities, you settle for "I do too." Really Joe, you are the only person who cares about how big it is, sex isn't a performance, and if you can't think of a zippy come-back then just :snow: It's not as if we will think less of you.

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QUOTE 
re: Ephesians. It's not in the Gospels.

Who decided Ephesians was non-canonical? Who decided only the Gospels hold relevance?


I was addressing that comment to underdog.
We had this discussion ages ago.
Though baffled as to why the absence of any statement by Christ denouncing homosexuals is viewed by you as unimportant,
I accept that you are set in your views and don't wish to acknowledge any other. So, could you stop re-visiting this subject?
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Way to over-analyze. I guess I got to you more than I expected. Unlike yours, my insults are superficial, and I don't actually believe your age or sex has anything to do with your inability to arrive at logical conclusions.

Re: my "renunciation"--what the hell are you talking about?

What is this crap about me still following the rules? What rules am I still following?

You see, as I am no longer Christian, questions about what is or isn't a sin, or whether or not the Pope is wrong on theology, are irrelevant to me.

That said, it is clear that the Bible unambiguously classifies certain things as sins, and this is the context from which I have been arguing.

I don't even belief in the concept of "sin".

Re; Ephesians--you're using a logical fallacy called an argument from silence. And in any case, Jesus did condemn sexual immorality, which, at the time of Jesus, included homosexuality.

You seem to bear some measure of loathing toward Paul, and I wonder why. Surely the perfect Christ would not choose apostle that would align themselves with a man, to be more responsible than any other for spreading God's word, who would get wrong such an important issue.

Or perhaps God is not perfect? Perhaps God is not real?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
I think you just acknowledged my reference to your fear of having a small dick cuts deeper than your attempted insult re. my age. :zebra:
You may want to edit that last post.

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...it is clear that the Bible unambiguously classifies certain things as sins...QUOTE]

You will need to ditch the belief in the infallibility of the Bible if you want any street cred with heretics.



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Joe
Coffea Canephora
It doesn't cut at all. You simply try to do too much with your insults, and take them much more seriously. I wasn't talking about your small dick comment, but rather your excessive response to the menopause insult and all those times you act like insulting people and making shitty remarks is a sport.

I don't believe the Bible is infallible, but one crucial part of Christianity is that it is infallible.

I honestly don't know why you can't distnguish between genuine belief in something and a simple discussion of the beliefs of a group of people.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
I'm running a behaviour modification program on you, Joe. Negative behaviour=negative response, positive behaviour=positive response. You're supposed to figure out that if you insult me, I will respond in a manner you won't enjoy.

I'm very open about my troll-as-prey attitude: I always give the person who is trolling clear warning about what I will do if they persist, and I always declare war in capital letters. I do view verbal jousting as a sport, and I don't want to blow my own trumpet, but I'm quite good at it. Don't like it? Don't insult me.
I'm more than happy to refrain from :zebra:-ing you. If you're polite, I'm polite.
The idea that I should sit here docilely while you run around slagging off anyone you please is amusing, but not one that I view with much enthusiasm.

Christianity does not believe the Bible is 'infallible'. Some people interpret it that way. The only things Christianity as a whole believes is that Jesus had some good ideas, was sent by God, and rose from the dead.

Go to a theology class, Joe: you'll hear priests who have studied in Rome discussing the allegorical nature of the stories in the Bible. The Bible is a collection of texts that have been chosen as representing Jewish and Christian beliefs. You don't have much time for 'divinely inspired'? There are just as many people who find the "I heard it direct from God and wrote it down" line a little hard to come at. The stories were collected into one book quite a long time after the writers were dead, and it wasn't like anyone could verify they had a direct line to God.

If you say, "the Bible is the direct word of God", I take that to mean you believe it. As you haven't specified any Christian beliefs that you can no longer hold (don't worry about it now though, it's the old fornication and contraception one, it gets everybody, we know) then I think criticising me for not distinguishing between your beliefs and those of Christians when they appear to be exactly the same is a little bit rich.

My response to your 'Jesus condemned immorality' can be found waaay back in this thread.
Quote:
 
We had this discussion ages ago.
I accept that you are set in your views and don't wish to acknowledge any other.




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Joe
Coffea Canephora
I didn't tell you to stop insulting me, nor did I complain about the fact that you do so.

What specific beliefs do I no longer hold? I'll start with the most important one: that Jesus was the son of god.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
Joe, your capacity to deny remarks that are there in print before us all is one of your least attractive qualities.

Quote:
 
that Jesus was the son of god.

Why didn't you say that when you were asked by Regullus and Krazy?

There are a lot of things in Catholic theology that break the fourth wall. Especially when you start thinking about them.
The doctrine of the Godhead of Christ rose out of the Messianic traditions. The early apostles invested Jesus with the status of Messiah to give his teachings extra credit. Prophecies and signs were extremely important in their culture. It snowballed from there.

The Catholic tradition of teaching children to accept the allegories and metaphors of the stories about Christ as absolute truth is a very bad move. Upon reaching an age where one can discern between reality and fantasy, young Catholics often feel as if they have been taken for a ride. Coupled with Benny's penchant for everybody thinking as he tells them to, it's a recipe for agnosticism.



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Joe
Coffea Canephora
I said that I no longer found reason to support such beliefs, which is essentially the same as saying I don't believe in Jesus' divinity.

I don't even take a position on whether or not there is a god. There is not enough evidence to show me that god exists, much less that he appointed men to spread his word.

None of those things are the fault of the Church. Religion in general has this problem.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
The question was

Quote:
 
Why didn't you say that when you were asked by Regullus and Krazy?


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Joe
Coffea Canephora
I did.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
No, you didn't.
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