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| Women as objects; ...sexuality is tricky stuff | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 20 2007, 01:06 AM (600 Views) | |
| Eral | Feb 20 2007, 01:06 AM Post #1 |
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Kopi Luwak
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The following is a summation of points for discussion. 1. It is wrong for women to dress provocatively 2. It is wrong for women to be sexually active unless in a stable relationship. 2. Cheapening sexuality has a negative effect on relationships. 3. Songs with sexual themes are inapproprite for young listeners. 4. Women dressed provocatively are inappropriate subjects for young viewers. 5. Women are not to blame for being the objects of male desire. 6. Women are to blame for offering themselves as objects of male desire 7. Objectification of women is OK if kept private. Wide-scale objectification of women is not OK. 8. Not all men objectify women: but some men do. The men who don't would like feminists to go after those buggers, and stop making them feel guilty for things that are out of their control. The essential questions are: is sex wrong? is display of sexuality wrong? is the level of sexual display in our society unhealthy and wrong? is it the responsibility of men, women or both? |
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| lara | Feb 20 2007, 04:18 AM Post #2 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I dressed as a Riot Grrl for Hallowe'en one year. It was a costume with a rad feminist point. I wore army boots, ripped fishnets, cutoffs, a black velvet bra. I had R-I-O-T G-R-R-L written across my knuckles. I had SLUT written across my belly. A slut is a woman who doesn't stick to sleeping with one man. That was me at the time, and I saw nothing wrong with it. I was taking a word back and wearing it with pride. |
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| Eral | Feb 20 2007, 05:29 AM Post #3 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Ah, youth. Stuff like that was fun, wasn't it? :lol: As a rad fem and lapsed Catholic, I too reject the notions of virginity until marriage, and that a sexually active woman is bad. But as a rad fem and lapsed Catholic I'm not comfortable with raunch culture either. It seems to be saying "this all a woman is". I personally am not comfortable with very revealing clothing: but the idea that a woman is "not good" or at risk if she wears revealing clothing doesn't sit well with me. Being looked at shouldn't be so fraught with difficulty. Women have always been appointed God's police: in order to promote morality they have had to dress modestly, etc etc. It's a crap job. |
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| Boeing | Feb 20 2007, 09:36 AM Post #4 |
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Yellow
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Oh yeah? Try carving the carcass sometime! :lol: |
| I want you. I want you so bad. I want you so bad it's driving me mad. She's so heavy! | |
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| Eral | Feb 20 2007, 10:44 AM Post #5 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Sorry, Boeing? Totally baffled by that one.
:(
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| Krazy | Feb 20 2007, 12:03 PM Post #6 |
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I haz powah!
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Isn't the point of dressing provocatively to send a message? If you are uncomfortable with the message, then surely it behoves you not to dress like that? |
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| Boeing | Feb 20 2007, 02:22 PM Post #7 |
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Yellow
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You gave an example of a woman's job, (or so I hope!) and I gave an example of a man's.
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| I want you. I want you so bad. I want you so bad it's driving me mad. She's so heavy! | |
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| Krazy | Feb 20 2007, 03:29 PM Post #8 |
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I haz powah!
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Just going to say that I'm going to stand back and watch this one... |
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| Regullus | Feb 20 2007, 04:16 PM Post #9 |
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Reliant
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This is a tough question because what is sexy or slutty? How you present yourself does matter. Do I want my daughter to dress like Shakira? No, of course not. This question becomes more difficult when you have a child. As an adult, I don't really care how people dress and how much skin is revealed although I really don't want to see primary or secondary sex organs. I prefer people who dress amusingly and originally then people who dress the sexy cookie cutter look. "My thong is exposed, my belly exposed with a belly ring and the cleaveage is accentuated and exposed. I look like five thousand other girls from any western country in the world." My problem today is I don't find the style of dress very attractive. I was chaperoning at a high school dance a couple of years ago and you either had girls in their overly mature formals or you had the riot grrl look and to me both are boring. The last time I saw a sexy girl, she was wearing army surplus pants, boots, a loose tank without a bra and she wasn't large breasted, her hair was up in a casual pony tale, wearing no make up with hairy armpits. Sounds attractive? Not really. Yet she was attractive not because she was she so above averagely pretty or so sexily dressed but because she was so comfortable with her appearance and her body. When I was a teen, I never wore consciously or purposely sexy clothes but I still wore clothes that could be construed as sexy by some as I do today, apparently, but I don't try and be sexy. I just am. ![]() The reason I'm mainly talking about young people is I think the issue is inappropriate dress in a young person. When your young you do experiment with your 'sexuality,' I debate that's the proper word to use, but you do have boobs even if you don't have big boobs, people (males usually) do start looking at you or you become aware that men are and I don't think it's unusual for young women to experiment but I think it has more to do with blending in with your peers and feelings of inadequacy more than sexuality. I don't find it a big deal because I'm not a threat to these girls but it can attract people, usually men, who may harm these girls, sometimes inadvertently, based on the image they project. I've also noticed over the years that men, apparently genuinely, have a very difficult time, judging age and sophistication. Also, depending on dress, these young girls can look like adults. They're trying to look like adults and they are acting like pseudo adults which can cause unfortunate experiences. On the other hand, judging by what clothing I have seen available at major chain department stores for young girls, toddlers and even babies is undoubtedly to my mind sexualizing girls at very early ages. At one point I linked a story about six yr olds being marketed lingerie and many of the mainstream dolls are sexy or slutty. It's really very disturbing the whole thing. I get this catalog called Garnet Hill which is a natural fiber bedding, clothing company, mainly for kids and women and it has very nice stuff in it and its a higher end store, not designer but not Target either. The last children's catalog I received had on the cover a prepubescent girl showering in a two piece bathing suit and it was a 'sexy' pose that you would see in Victoria's Secret and it was a disturbing marketed image. |
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| Eral | Feb 20 2007, 10:49 PM Post #10 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I am not comfortable dressing provocatively, so I don't. (I'm pretty sure I'm not sexy, even accidentally. :lol: ) The question is, is a woman dressing provocatively indicating her sexual availability; or is she just dressing as pleases her? Are men the centre of everything women do? Like Regullus, I have concerns about young girls displaying a lot of flesh, but I also admire their confidence and beauty. I don't like the all prevailing women-are-sexy advertising, and I really don't like it being directed to children. I am comfortable for my nieces to feel positive about themselves and enjoy wearing pretty clothes: as long as their self-esteem comes from what they can do, not just how they look. I'm a bit surprised that the term "slut" is still in use to describe a sexually confident woman, and that women are viewed negatively if they are sexually active: given the image of women in the media. I'm also concerned about telling women to cover up and be modest to win approval - should we start wearing hidjab now? Boeing: gotcha. I was confused because carving has always been my mum's job. It ceremoniously passed to my younger sister, when having taken a chicken out of the oven, my dad stood back and looked at it, and passed the carving knife to her. It's a very bad deal, she eats all the crackling before it comes to the table. |
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| Joe | Feb 20 2007, 11:11 PM Post #11 |
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Coffea Canephora
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I pretty much agree with everything you have said. I honestly don't care how adults dress, but the problem is that Shakira's product is targeted at people far too young to understand why they should not dress like their favorite singer. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Feb 21 2007, 12:06 AM Post #12 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Joe, you don't need to quote all of Regullus' post. Just saying "I agree with Regullus" will do. We all read what she said. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...40-2703,00.html Scary stuff. My niece loves Kylie Minogue. She is in no danger of ever wearing revealing gold shorts because, though only 8, she has great dress sense. She may try it on later, as a form of rebellion, but here's hoping she doesn't. She certainly won't be getting the opportunity until she can buy her own clothes. However, if she does, as a grown woman, choose to forget everything she has learned about style, anyone who calls her a slut can expect to be punched in the nose by several irate aunties. At present, it is up her parents to limit her exposure to material they find unacceptable, and educate her about choices and consequences. Later, she has to work it out for herself. Hopefully, she will have learned to value herself for more than how she looks. I saw a woman at dinner with her three daughters: oldest probably 15. The very pretty girls were all dressed in very revealing clothing, which I thought very inappropriate. However, the mother was clearly comfortable with it. My hang-up or her dereliction of duty? Is a woman wearing revealing clothes at risk? How do you balance freedom and safety? One of the reasons I dress very modestly is I was really uncomfortable with the attention more revealing clothing drew when I was young. Shouts from cars, tooting, wolf-whistles from building sites. It wasn't admiration: it was a form of intimidation. Like the Iranian woman who wears a chador because it protects her, I wore modest clothing to avoid that sort of abuse. (Just in case there is any confusion, a compliment is when someone speaks to you directly, saying "My, you look very pretty." Shouting "How about a fuck?" from a moving vehicle is not.) I think we must have made some progress for young women to feel more comfortable in revealing clothing. Either this distressing behaviour has lessened, or they do not feel as intimidated by it. |
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| lara | Feb 21 2007, 03:34 AM Post #13 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I'll preface this by saying "back when" I was an adult. Before I was an adult, I wasn't nearly confident enough to dress the way I did then. Well, back when, I certainly dressed provocatively when I wanted to. I also dressed tough when I wanted to. Sometimes I went to university dressed as a cowgirl. Or as a gypsy. Or a hippy. I dressed however I wanted to dress. TBH, I think I was intimidating to people who didn't take me exactly the way I wanted to be taken - as someone who thought life was a lark and I was going to enjoy it. (I also believed life was deadly serious and I was going to change the world, btw. "I fight with love and I laugh with rage. You've got to live light enough to see the humour and long enough to see some change.") I felt threatened once - I was wearing big old baggy clothes at the time, walking home alone, and some guys found it funny to talk about crossing the street and raping me. I did once get taken for a prostitute while I was walking to the club I hung out at - it was on the same street that was known as a prostitute's drag. I once had some creepy guy who'd been walking toward me enter a house on the street and say, in a low voice, "I want to fuck you" as I walked by. I simply held up my middle finger and kept walking - I wasn't scared, he might have been. If I wanted something, the guy knew it. If I didn't, he knew that, too. My friends and I looked out for each other and my boots were pretty awesome weapons. Clothes are clothes. If you're self-confident and streetwise, you should be okay. If you're not, you could get in trouble regardless of what you wear. That said, I don't want my daughter dressing "like a slut" either. I want her to dress like herself. |
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| Blood_Raven | Feb 27 2007, 03:17 PM Post #14 |
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Come burn with me.
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I usually do not divulge too much personal info on the net, but I used to exotic dance. I heard every nasty word there is to describe me and the other girls. Hell it was a job, one that paid well. I know who I am and I am not a slut, or whore or whatever. I danced not prositute myself. I could have made more money by doing special "services" but that's not me, even if I was single at the time. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't want her to get into it though. |
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TheFrozen North forums. Where it's at. Mood for today: Perfection | |
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| Eral | Feb 28 2007, 01:21 AM Post #15 |
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Kopi Luwak
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You wouldn't want your daughter dancing, because you'd want better choices for her. At some point, showing your breasts to strange men isn't going to be the highest paid work a woman can get without a university degree. Well, I live in hope. Women provide services like dancing, prostitution, porn and trophy wife because it pays a lot better than most of the other jobs available. I get really cross with the "bad" labels attached to these occupations, when consumption of the product offered is not so labelled. Men want to look at naked girls. This is normal and healthy. So, the women who are prepared to get naked should be considered normal and healthy too. Yes? |
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| Joe | Feb 28 2007, 05:05 AM Post #16 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Watching porn, going to strip clubs, and marrying trophy wives is and should be considered negative. It is not healthy for women to treat themselves as objects. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| lara | Feb 28 2007, 12:54 PM Post #17 |
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Kopi Luwak
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And it's not healthy for men to treat women as objects (i'm not meaning to imply you said the opposite). |
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| Krazy | Feb 28 2007, 02:04 PM Post #18 |
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I haz powah!
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If a man is shallow enough he wants a pair of large tits for wife, and the woman is shallow enough to want a fat wallet for a husband, who are we to criticise their choice? A bit blunt perhaps but at least they went for whatever makes them happy (I hope). |
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| Krazy | Feb 28 2007, 03:51 PM Post #19 |
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I haz powah!
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And if I'm not mistaken this subject is not just restricted to women as sex objects. It happens to men as well. Suga-mommas and their toy-boys etc. |
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| Bex | Feb 28 2007, 04:01 PM Post #20 |
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puppet dictator
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I'm informed that women watching a male stripper tend to behave themselves far-beyond-far worse than men, who have mostly mastered the concept of hands-off (perhaps because the bouncers are tougher on them?). I don't know. I've never been. At any rate, I believe in holding both genders to the same standard of behavioral expectations and ideals. I do think that female objectification, and the accompanying body obsession and so forth is more pervasive. Men are catching up in at least some aspects though. They're not nearly as subject to harassment, but young males are getting increasingly sensitive to what they percieve as their physical inadequacies measured against the male "ideal" bodies they see in the media. Sound familiar? It's not new (remember Charles Atlas?), but it's getting more prevalent, and more severe. |
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I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should, but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed. -Min Jin Lee | |
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| Bex | Feb 28 2007, 04:09 PM Post #21 |
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puppet dictator
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Oh! And I just deleted some spam from my email, which conveniently reminded me of anxiety about penis size. Say whatever negative things there are to be said about breast implants (according to comedian Denis Leary: "the female equivalent to a combover"), but at least women who are insecure about their breast size can be reassured that implants work as advertised (except maybe for the health risks). I know someone who wants implants. I'm horrified, but at the same time, I don't think it's right to try to dictate what she can do to her body. I'd prefer it if she could accept herself the way she is (lovely, to my eyes), but if she doesn't want to... I don't know. It's complicated. |
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I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should, but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed. -Min Jin Lee | |
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| Eral | Mar 1 2007, 06:17 AM Post #22 |
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Kopi Luwak
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For a man to look at a woman and see her only in terms of how she gratifies his senses, no matter what their relationship, is objectification. A woman can't treat herself as an object: she can decide to work in an industry where her job is to be looked at, but it is the man looking at her who makes her an object - whose only purpose is to gratify him. I have a sneaking suspicion the reason that men are being objectified more is the increasing acceptance of homosexuality, and the dominance of men in advertising and fashion. But a man admiring a woman he finds beautiful, or a woman doing the same is not unnatural or wrong. A woman who displays herself for admiration is not doing anything wrong. The question of where your confidence comes from is helpful when judging a behaviour healthy or not. Is it because someone else tells me I'm *insertcharacteristic* and I need approval or because I believe it myself and it makes me feel good? Why do I want Botox or breast implants? What do I expect from it? |
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| Regullus | Mar 1 2007, 02:19 PM Post #23 |
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Reliant
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I've been to a male strip thing for a pre-wedding party and seen one on tv (which was very raunchy and kinda sexy too). The one I went to was interesting because there was a lot more touching by both the men and the women but I would say it was less fraught with negative overtones and more good humored and nobody was derogatory towards the strippers. I don't think you have the same condescension towards the male strippers as there is towards women strippers or at least that was my impression. I thought it was pretty funny but not sexy in the least. As for people displaying themselves, I don't know if that is healthy. I agree with Krazy, if two shallow people want to get together then it spares the rest of us from having to deal with them. :D As to objectification, well, sometimes both men and women want only the physical and aren't really interested in delving further. It's not a crime. In a way don't we objectify many professions? The plumber, the cashier, the doctor, etc., we want the profession but not the individual. I can't tell how many hours I've spent listening to repairmen's life histories and personal problems. Literally, thousands of hours of my life have evaporated listening to people who I just want them to do a job I'm paying for. Does a man go into a strip club and want to see anything other than an attractive set of boobs displayed? I doubt it. I don't think they go in thinking of exploitation. When I saw my strip revue, I didn't think of the dancers as personalities, I just went to see a show or was dragged to see a show. We watch a certain amount of tv shows with some type of service provider and I'm amazed at how the customer has to interact with these providers. Granted, a lot of the customers are some type of celebrity but apparently, you have to have pictures with the service providers, hug the service provider and chat with the service providers and you know, honestly, I just want the job done, I don't want to have to interact with the service provider. It's a form of objectification but it's harmless and it's part of human nature. You don't want to have deep interactions with everybody. Who has the time? The more I think on it, I think the whole objectification argument is histronic.
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| Bex | Mar 1 2007, 03:19 PM Post #24 |
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puppet dictator
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Hugging the service provider... I think we've just touched on the objectification of celebrities. |
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I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should, but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed. -Min Jin Lee | |
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| Eral | Mar 1 2007, 10:59 PM Post #25 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I find people displaying themselves annoying - and the day I can look at the paper and not see Paris Hilton will be a happy one for me - but I feel that feminists have done such a good job negating the objectification of women, that I don't have to worry about it so much.
:) |
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