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Women as objects; ...sexuality is tricky stuff
Topic Started: Feb 20 2007, 01:06 AM (601 Views)
Bex
puppet dictator
I don't think it stems from the concept that it's ok to flaunt your looks, but from the concept that females are only supposed to look like a very narrow "ideal." Women in other societies will also go to great lengths to meet their cultural beauty ideals even when they're expected to be completely covered in public.

I'd say it's both perception and reality. Some people are a lot more vulnerable to the influence of media and advertising, but we are constantly bombarded with all kinds of messages that effectively boil down to "you are a loser unless you ______" (buy our product, look like this, live this lifestyle). If models are the most beautiful women, then we should all aspire to look like models.

I'd venture this is also why increasing numbers of young men are being noted with eating disorders, gym burnout, and angst about what they percieve as too much or too little body hair. "I'm nothing without six-pack abs, and nobody will ever love me."
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Vanity is at the source of it all. The people who have it flaunt it, and the people who don't stick their fingers down their throats because they want to look like those who flaunt it.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Drew
Member Avatar
Apparently not Cybersquirt's favorite person
Joe
Mar 4 2007, 06:10 PM
Vanity is at the source of it all. The people who have it flaunt it, and the people who don't stick their fingers down their throats because they want to look like those who flaunt it.

Prove it. What you are using is called "rhetoric". It sounds good, but doesn't actually mean anything.

Vanity isn't the only cause of Bulimia. Many bulimics are actually obese when they develop the condition. They resort to vomiting because they can't control their appetite and they can't lose the weight any other way. Given that these people are currently afflicted with "Sloth" and "Gluttony" because they are obese, it would be a bit hypocritical to argue that their misguided attempts to lose weight stem from "Vanity", don't you think? Bulimia is caused by insecurity....and it's not always about appearance. Sometimes the insecurity is about health, or perhaps (as happened with Tracy Gold) their very livelihood was threatened if they didn't lose weight. Also, citing vanity for the insecurity also ignores societal pressure. Young girls who put their fingers down their throats may be doing so because everyone makes fun of her for not being thin enough, or just because she thinks they do. That isn't vanity. It's conformity (real or imagined).
Poor baby. Couldn't find a fight anywhere else so you had to come here, huh. -Cyber.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Drew
Mar 4 2007, 01:14 PM
Prove it. What you are using is called "rhetoric". It sounds good, but doesn't actually mean anything.

This was always a very rhetorical discussion. The things we are discussing aren't very easy to quantify.

My contention is that our society focuses too much on "beauty" and"attractiveness", and creates a situation where egotism is valued.

You say that egotism doesn't hurt anyone. I say that it does.

In general, an egotist will exploit others, and purposely take more than he or she gives back. Egotists are arrogant people. I don't know how you can say this condition is harmless.

Applying this to beauty/attractiveness, a woman who is an egotist because of the way she looks, feeling she is better than others, will act accordingly. Men and women will justify this behavior by ]treating her as if she is better, and this will lead to many other women experiencing feelings of inadequacy.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Bex
puppet dictator
The way I see it, we're having a baby/bathwater disagreement.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with taking some pride in one's appearance. Overemphasis is problematic, but I frankly think it's entirely possible to be body-positive without anything remotely egotistical about it, individually or societally.
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
I don't think there's anything wrong with simple pride, either. But always dressing in a way that shows of your body or emphasizes your "beauty" is the equivalent of talking about yourself all the time.

Also, about the greater evils of egotism...I was watching Mitt Romney earlier, and he said that America needs to be the sole economic and military power in the world. Why? What makes America better than everyone else? That is egotism, and that is a very dangerous example of it.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
I demand that you two get yourself one thread, or STOP with the pointless re-iteration of opinion. I'm going to go out of my mind with boredom. Drew, if you are going to pick a fight with Joe, be funny.

Eating disorders have nothing to do with egotism. As Bex said, it's because these people don't have a strong sense of self the disordered eating develops. As Drew said, strong insecurity can be a factor.
Anorexics starve themselves to punish themselves and have a sense of control over their lives. They typically are high achievers who feel under family pressure to succeed.
Bulimics purge to punish themselves and keep secret their guilt. Over-eating is a response to stress, an expression of self-hatred and a comfort. Keeping secrets gives a strong sense of power.

Society's value for beauty can lead to vanity. This is encouraged so companies can sell things. A vain or egotistical person is a pain in the arse. However, Shakira wiggling her bottom on a music video is not a threat to the fabric of society.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
Shakira is a symptom of the sickness, not the cause. But she is willingly a symptom.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
Yes. I believe we said that 3 pages ago. :rolleyes:
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lara
Member Avatar
Kopi Luwak
I thought this was relevant to this discussion.

What I read in the newspaper this morning

An excerpt:

Christopher Lind, former director of the Toronto School of Theology, explained that what [Vancouver's Anglican] bishop is saying is that "sexuality is a lot bigger than genital activity, and that's hard for people to hear because people hear the word sex and they think intercourse.

"The whole culture has a hard time hearing that sex is something spiritual, that it's something bigger than just intercourse. And when we talk about the [church] blessing of same-sex unions, he makes the case that relationships should be judged on the basis of fidelity, trust, values other than the regulation of genital activity.

"He's starting to go into what's the meaning of patriarchy. Patriarchy is a distortion of the gospel [the central Christian teaching], a social sin which the church has to confess. But to correct it is enormously hard to do. We've been living in patriarchy for thousands of years."

***

We Canadians are getting quite the reputation for this sort of thing, aren't we?
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
I wonder why it's only Anglicans who say anything like this. :lol: It's so refreshing to hear somebody in a hat saying what we all know.

Go Anglicans. :party:
I hope they are not destroyed by the schism. :( Oh well, I will barrack for the team with these views.
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