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| The World in Numbers; Random stats | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2007, 02:41 PM (1,291 Views) | |
| Drew | May 4 2007, 08:00 AM Post #101 |
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Apparently not Cybersquirt's favorite person
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$$ See? That wasn't hard to explain, now, was it? To elaborate further, the gun lobby simply has too much power, and, to make matters worse, they are also in bed with the religious right. In this country, good Christians go with the moral majority....which also means that good Christians go with the NRA. Apparently, most Americans are too apathetic and naive (or just too stupid) to recognize manipulative and disingenuous rhetoric for what it is. |
| Poor baby. Couldn't find a fight anywhere else so you had to come here, huh. -Cyber. | |
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| Joe | May 4 2007, 10:30 AM Post #102 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Just did now. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Regullus | May 4 2007, 01:59 PM Post #103 |
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Reliant
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Changed to what, Eral? The reason I'm against banning guns for everyone is I don't believe it's fair to penalize the majority due to the minority. Only money, Drew? IRT lara - Sounds like a reasonable and plausible explanation. Isolation and rejection or perceived rejection seems a pretty consistent theme in a lot of the killings and a sense of persecution, and the failure to live within society. All three Montreal shooters have been 'outsiders.' Drew's for banning assualt guns, and I assume Drew knows a bit about guns because I think he was in the military. Krazy is for limiting ammo and prohibiting certain types of guns. Eral, I'm assuming, is for an Australian type program, and again I assume, lara and Bex for a Canadian type system. Here are the problems I see: How many murders would be prevented due to lack of assault weapons and hollow point bullets? I'm thinking not too many. Limiting ammo? Most murders aren't committed by using 100s of rounds, I think. The buyback program? This is an estimate, in 10 yrs, the US at a cost of at least $10 billion could buyback 40 million guns and I'm basing that on, I think Australian figures. It is estimated that US has 298 million guns. Canada and Australia are estimated to have roughly 4 million guns each. As this discussion was promoted by a mass killing. I'm of the opinion that these measures will do nothing to prevent mass killings. I think prohibiting the sale of guns to mentally ill and mentally deficient people (I'm thinking of Martin Bryant with the iq of 66.) would help. Cho was almost prevented from purchasing due to an existing law but slipped thru a loophole. I'm not quite sure how this could be done but something along the lines of households with minor children, the guns have locks which only the adults have access to the combination. The parents should be liable for failure to store guns/ammo safely. I'm hestitant to penalize the parents for a child's behavior because children are tricky. It's hard for even the best parent to know what a child's up to at all times. Gun safety courses (including safe storage of weapons), licensing, waiting periods. I'd also go with the banning of some types of weapons, the machine guns, grenade launchers, etc., I'll accept also assualt rifles, hollow point ammo. I don't know guns enough to be more specific. I would like to see a comprehensive study of this phenomena and recommendations to future prevention. Lastly, more mental health care and attention in schools and I'd like to see less tolerance in this matter. Cho was stalking, he was being exceptionally strange throughout his school career, he should have had help. With the mental health prohibition, due to the transient nature of some mental illnesses, anyone prohibited by mental health issues from owning a gun should have the right to appeal the revocation. Will this prevent mass murder? No, but it would have possibly prevented Port Arthur and VT, and it will definitely help with high school shootings. I don't think you can ever fully prevent murder in a free society. If you continue on a logical progression, violence in media will have to be addressed. What is the effect of violence in writing, art, pornography, video games, music, movies, tv, etc., etc? There has been a study that the heavy media coverage of these school shooting or any sensational murder inspires others to commit the same acts. I openly admit if I hadn't heard, read or seen some acts, I would never know about them because I never would have thought of them. I doubt I'm unique. That opens the way to more prohibitions. I doubt you will ever prevent murder because there will always be people who fail to live within societal norms and they will blame their failure on society or aspects of society or an individual. Kehoe, the Bath bomber, went out of his way to make a sign before he killed himself and others that said, "Criminals are made not born.," what he meant is society made him a criminal by his perception of societal persecution. What did Cho say? What do most of them say? How much freedom are you willing to give up to solve this issue? Australians never had the right to bear arms, England is, according to sensationalist headlines, the most surveiled nation in the world with one camera for every 14 citizens and who knows what's going on in the US. Honestly, it would probably turn my hair white if I knew. More people die from aspirin in the US than mass murder. More people die due to hospital error than all the murders (non-gun included) every year in the US. Is it guns or societal ills? Would money and time be put to better use if we addressed issues of poverty, culture and mental illness? I don't think these issues should be ignored. Of course, a society should try and prevent the preventable but when does the cure cause more problems than the disease. |
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| Regullus | May 4 2007, 02:34 PM Post #104 |
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Reliant
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Re: Disconnection with Society, more prevalent in urban areas: I don't know, I think isolation can be very strong in less populated areas, I think. Being different in a small town is difficult. I would attribute it to feelings of anonymity perhaps lessening prohibitions. In non-fatal instances, people can feel less inhibited among strangers. Forinstance, in a small town, an individual or individual's family is pretty well known, and I think it may be the idea of personalized censure rather than lack of isolation that acts as a greater inhibitior. Also, Eral, we don't shoot people in 'petrol' stations, we shoot them in gas stations. If you were the 51st state, you would know that. <_< IRT Joe - Good, we're all about the birthdays. |
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| Drew | May 4 2007, 03:08 PM Post #105 |
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Apparently not Cybersquirt's favorite person
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Sadly, in our society, power is money. The NRA is powerful because it is backed by people with money. If it didn't have such backing, it wouldn't be able to afford a bigger lobby than the environment gets. That isn't the point behind the assault weapons ban. We don't ban assault weapons just to prevent murders. It wouldn't work, anyway, because a .44 can do the same job as an Uzi or an automatic Shotgun just fine. Put simply, if assault weapons are legal, then more criminals will have assault weapons. If more criminals carry assault weapons, than the police will have to start carrying them, too, in order to be able to pacify them. I'd rather not see our peace officers carrying grenade launchers and sniper rifles. I can guarantee you that an M16 looks a hell of a lot less friendly than a glock. Hollow points, by the way, are legal. |
| Poor baby. Couldn't find a fight anywhere else so you had to come here, huh. -Cyber. | |
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| Regullus | May 4 2007, 03:58 PM Post #106 |
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Reliant
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I knew hollow points were legal, I'm sure there are other types of equally lethal ammo that are legal too but I am completely unaware of them. My point about the money is I also think many people feel strongly about the right to bear arms, or at least a lot of people I know feel pretty strongly about unrestricted ownership. Although I would suppose under questioning they would agree to some restrictions, mentally ill people, forinstance or safe storage of guns/ammo and restriction of certain types of weaponry. The NRA has 3 million members which gives them a certain political clout. I read in 1998 the NRA spent 2.5 million dollars. I don't think there's much of an argument for private ownership of assault/machine type guns. After the injured deer experience, I do think pretty powerful weapons should be used in hunting to ensure a quick kill. Not only do injured animals needlessly suffer but there is an increased danger to the public. I don't know enough about guns to specify type. I also understand that certain types of animals, bears, require quite a bit of firepower. I do know that if you want a put down a horse with a gun, first you shoot the horse behind the ear with the intent of severing the spinal cord rendering the horse immobile then you shoot in the center of the forehead cowlick, thru the brain. Failure to do that can cause horrendous and needless suffering to the horse as you can easily miss the brain and endangers the shooter and bystanders. I haven't witnessed it but it's a pretty awful scenario. We had a neighbor who tried to put down an ill horse and missed the brain. It's was a traumatic situation for everybody. Luckily, I've never had to do that and I don't have a gun but at least I could direct someone on the matter if the need arose. |
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| Krazy | May 4 2007, 04:18 PM Post #107 |
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I haz powah!
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That's the crux right there isn't it? Does (fairly) unrestricted universal gun access do more harm than good? As for the poor horse, that image is fairly disturbing - are there no injections/tranqs etc that can do the job instead of bullets? That would seem more humane to me. |
| "Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. " | |
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| Regullus | May 4 2007, 04:40 PM Post #108 |
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Reliant
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Re: Equines: The preferred method is a lethal injection which when properly done is the most humane and very quick. I seen horses die before the injection is complete. However, vets aren't always available, the transport of a large and severely ailing animal is very rarely an option and the drug cocktail is not standard equipment and it takes a certain experience to administer efficiently. Also it's not inexpensive to put down a large animal, it's usually, 300 - $500 for a vet to do it. Well worth it in my opinion. |
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| Drew | May 4 2007, 07:18 PM Post #109 |
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Apparently not Cybersquirt's favorite person
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Perhaps it's my cynicism shining through again, but, given our nation's current foreign policy, I feel we have ample evidence to indicate that "what the majority of Americans think" about something is largely irrelevant when it comes to making laws. It's about who has the biggest lobby. |
| Poor baby. Couldn't find a fight anywhere else so you had to come here, huh. -Cyber. | |
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| Eral | May 4 2007, 11:35 PM Post #110 |
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Kopi Luwak
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51? 53? Gas is just that : a gas that comes in pipes and heats your water and makes a lovely blue flame on the cooker. You don't put it in your car, unless it is LPG. Petrol is a liquid. They are completely different and I have never understood why America ignores basic scientific concepts and yet is still the Space Race country. Gun laws wouldn't eradicate the killing: but it would sure as hell stop them being a weekly occurence. The people who need guns -farmers and hunters- can still get them here. But other people can't. What's wrong with that system for America? Guns are a tool: if you don't need one for your work, you don't need one. Simple. The NRA is rich, sure, and pollies are more concerned with staying in government than actually doing anything good while they are there, and there are people who justify gun laws with the "right to bear arms" but haven't any need to bear arms but just feel safer somehow: so American gun laws won't change, and people accept the deaths. Absolutely baffling. :'( |
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| Regullus | May 5 2007, 12:32 AM Post #111 |
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Reliant
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gas·o·line - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gas-uh-leen, gas-uh-leen] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun a volatile, flammable liquid mixture of hydrocarbons, obtained from petroleum, and used as fuel for internal-combustion engines, as a solvent, etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Origin: 1860–65, Americanism; gas + -ol2 + -ine2] gas·o·line n. A volatile mixture of flammable liquid hydrocarbons derived chiefly from crude petroleum and used principally as a fuel for internal-combustion engines. gasoline coined 1865 as gasolene, from gas (q.v.) + chemical suffix -ine/-ene. current spelling is 1871; shortened form gas first recorded Amer.Eng. 1905. Gas station first recorded 1932. :rolleyes: |
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| lara | May 5 2007, 04:08 AM Post #112 |
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Kopi Luwak
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One question: Then how the hell is it that people are always saying gun ownership rates are similar in Canada and the U.S.? Don't tell me there are 2.5 billion people in the U.S.! |
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| Bex | May 5 2007, 04:45 AM Post #113 |
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puppet dictator
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I'm guessing those other rates are based on the percentage of households with (a) gun(s), not the average number of guns per person. Ah, statistics. |
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I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should, but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed. -Min Jin Lee | |
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| Krazy | May 5 2007, 07:58 AM Post #114 |
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I haz powah!
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I think Switzerland also has a very high gun ownership, with mandatory gun ownership for any military age male but as I understand it doesn't seem to suffer the same problems as the US or at least not to the same degree. But then Switzerland is a fairly isolated relatively rich country maybe better placed to deal with the issues surrounding gun ownership. |
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| Regullus | May 5 2007, 08:46 AM Post #115 |
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Reliant
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Here it Says 200 million privately owned guns Regardless whether its 200 m or almost 300 m., it's a lot of guns. Lot more guns than Canada or Australia and probably UK. I have to say I don't remember where I read the 298 m. figure. If I kept searching, I'd possibly find it but this was the first thing I found. 298 m may represent law enforcement too? Don't recall. I may look more tomorrow. Switzerland Large parts of the US have very low crime rates in all crime categoriess. I'll have to check but I believe 34 US states have lower crime and murder rates than EU/UK/Aus. 'Course, our crime (Unlike your crime. :rolleyes: :banghead: :redface:) tends to be centered in urban areas. |
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| Regullus | May 5 2007, 01:14 PM Post #116 |
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Reliant
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What does "the right to bear arms" really mean? - Answers from "The Straight Dope" |
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| Eral | May 6 2007, 12:07 AM Post #117 |
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Kopi Luwak
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That's just his opinion: not a fact. Again, he is justifying gun ownership using the second amendment. He does allow regulation - Baruch Hashem - but it's basically EXACTLY the same argument we began with. "Don't care how many people get killed -it's the law." This is nearly as annoying as French people and pronounciation. Spudd said the Swedish people who have guns keep them locked in a cupboard. This is a good idea: and only the queen should have the keys to all the cupboards. Anyone who wants their gun has to ask her. That quiz was right: I am creative when it comes to solving problems. |
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| Krazy | May 6 2007, 06:56 AM Post #118 |
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I haz powah!
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Pronunciation!!! Can't slag off the Frogs and not get that right! |
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| lara | May 6 2007, 05:51 PM Post #119 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Yeah, but other numbers I quoted suggest fewer than 10% of the people in Canada own guns, while about 25% in the U.S. own guns. Let's put it this way: I have yet to see numbers that support the old NRA argument that gun ownership rates in the U.S. and Canada are similar. My theory? It's just not true. In fact, I once read somewhere that they took the long gun ownership rates for Canada (i.e. rifles) and compared them to long gun ownership in the U.S., and that in fact, those rates ARE very similar. They ignored handguns, etc. - Canada has tighter controls on those and therefor ownership of those weapons is much lower. |
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| Krazy | May 6 2007, 08:54 PM Post #120 |
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I haz powah!
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There was a policeman shot dead in Shrewsbury, here's an article from the BBC about the dangers of policing.
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| Eral | May 8 2007, 08:44 AM Post #121 |
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Kopi Luwak
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re: pronounciation. Sorry, it's an old joke. Nana was complaining to another teacher about her little Johnny's inability to pronounciate words. I promptly added it to my Lexicon. :blush: |
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| Blood_Raven | May 9 2007, 02:06 PM Post #122 |
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Come burn with me.
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A good thing eh? |
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TheFrozen North forums. Where it's at. Mood for today: Perfection | |
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| Regullus | Jun 12 2007, 11:50 PM Post #123 |
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Reliant
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Scotland is 'worst small country' |
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| Joe | Jun 13 2007, 02:04 AM Post #124 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Haha, you know they purposely chose not to qualify that statement. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Jun 13 2007, 11:17 PM Post #125 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Give Scotland a minute: they'll come good. They've only been their own country for an extremely short time. The reason Scots' health seems so bad is they don't have another group to compare with. All of us invaders have got put-upon indigenous populations to make us look good. The Scots have been the put-upon indigenous population: of course their health is shockingly bad. And if they cook the way Irish people do, well, it can't be good. :( |
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Gas is just that : a gas that comes in pipes and heats your water and makes a lovely blue flame on the cooker. You don't put it in your car, unless it is LPG. Petrol is a liquid. They are completely different and I have never understood why America ignores basic scientific concepts and yet is still the Space Race country.

4:31 PM Jul 13