Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Coffeetalk. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Religious fanatics; Stupid or crazy?
Topic Started: Jul 1 2007, 10:47 PM (601 Views)
Eral
Kopi Luwak
I am interested in the thinking behind the latest bombing attempts, though perhaps appalled is a better word. Not so much the bombers themselves, because frankly it's incomprehensible to me, but the allegedly religious leaders who send young men (and this time a woman, too) out to put nails in car bombs, to hurt people they don't know as much as possible, in the country in which they were born and live because of a decision made over which their victims had no control.
How do you get from religion to that? It seems to me to require a huge leap of logic, and damned if I see it.

I know the justification for the murder of Jewish settlers is that by being present in the disputed territory they are guilty and therefore legitimate targets. Are the bombings in London justified by the troops presence in Iraq, in the same way?
Or is the point to continue the cycle of prejudice and anger? You know, because of the bombings dominant culture members increase their bigoted attacks on minority groups, which increases the sense of isolation and injustice the people feel, leading to more fodder for the jihad.

The group of people who are charged with wanting to blow things up here asked their imam about how they could get around the injunction about harming innocents, but I never heard the answer because that was the point the police busted down the door and arrested them all.
How does a religious leader give such instructions?
Has everybody had a lobotomy?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Regullus
Member Avatar
Reliant
I was a fanatic...I know their thinking, says former radical Islamist

tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Eral
Kopi Luwak
Oh. My. God. "I can kill you because you are different to me."

:raven:

It's come out now that the latest batch of bombers were doctors.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/batt...3351204858.html

This article is by Waleed Aly, whom I find somewhat difficult to read. He presents the anti-West POV to enable discussion and promote understanding, but I find the anti-West POV seriously annoying. Also, he never discusses his personal view - which is probably only sensible, because he'd probably get whacked by someone if he did - but I am always left wondering about exactly who holds the POV. e.g. who admires Osama because he lives in a cave? And what exactly are all those people who hate America basing their hatred on? Things that happened hundreds of years ago? Ignorance? When those views are presented without comment, they seem to be given validation.

Aly's point that there should be discussion about whether Muslims are entitled to kill anyone non-Muslim raises this response in me: "discussion"??? Why is there a question???

It just doesn't seem real.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Joe
Coffea Canephora
Well the fanatics are animals, plain and simple.

Sure, we have treated them in ways for which they have legitimate reasons to be angry, but stoning 16 year old girls for having sex has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lara
Member Avatar
Kopi Luwak
Eral
Jul 3 2007, 10:41 PM
Aly's point that there should be discussion about whether Muslims are entitled to kill anyone non-Muslim raises this response in me: "discussion"??? Why is there a question???

Well, it's a bit like the Old Testament, isn't it? You hear its echoes in Bush's speeches: "Those who ain't for us are agin' us." Most of us are quite adept at pointing out the idiocy of such statements. But Aly's right: when I read opposing views from Muslim scholars, I simply read something along the lines of, "They're wrong, the Koran doesn't say that. It says you shouldn't do that." Well, Aly's pointing out that it says both, and the teachers need to admit it and deal with it. Look at the history and context of the Bible, and most of the Christians I know point out that the Old Testament comes from a completely different context and a completely different time, and even the New Testament needs to be looked at in context. Heck, imo, the dress of the Amish needs to be looked at in context - the no buttons, no mustaches and beards are actually anti-militaristic statements from the days when brass buttons and large mustaches were the signature of officers. The cover your hair commandment comes from a time when prostitutes were known to flaunt their hair the way they wear spikes and teeny dresses and bad make-up now. Sorry, a little digression. But he's saying that Muslim scholars have to stop saying "You're wrong" and refusing to address the militarism of the Koran - they need to explain it, give it context, so those who are reading it can get a fuller understanding of the book, rather than be faced with a black-and-white choice in a world where they need to learn to deal with the grey areas.

Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. It's the reason fundamentalists of all stripes drive me crazy. They see the world in black and white and force grey into the black area, because they refuse to accept the existence greys.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Eral
Kopi Luwak
Joe, the fanatics are not animals. They're doctors. Educated, priveledged people of status. If they were all people from a remote village I'd understand the belief that we are all infidels and must die. I'd say they are misguided, and don't know any better. But these are people who have lived in a multi-cultural world. How does killing themselves and others become a reasonable choice?

lara: I am struggling with the question of how do they deal with it? What context can it be in?
Christians (for the most part) have moved on from the evangelical conversion-or-be-damned thing: even the Pope accepts that other religions are bone fide ( I'm sure that's because he thinks Roman Catholicism is the most bone fide) and we generally accept that if people want to cover or not wear buttons they have the right to do so.
The idea of having to discuss whether non-Muslims have the right to live seems outrageous. It suggests that the idea has legitimacy. You know, maybe Osama and his buddies are right. It's insane.

I remember once a Muslim cleric explaining conflict over Israel with the statement "Islam is not a pacifist religion." I see that as an essential difference b/w Islam and other religions (being honest about it, that is) but I guess I can't understand how hating other people you don't know can become so consuming.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Joe
Coffea Canephora
Eral
Jul 4 2007, 12:54 AM
Joe, the fanatics are not animals. They're doctors. Educated, priveledged people of status. If they were all people from a remote village I'd understand the belief that we are all infidels and must die. I'd say they are misguided, and don't know any better. But these are people who have lived in a multi-cultural world. How does killing themselves and others become a reasonable choice?

I've seen people dress their poor pets in Halloween costumes. They wear human clothings, but the precious darlings remain animals.

These fanatics are monsters and savages, regardless of their education experiences.

Islam and its desert barbarians have destroyed the entire Middle East.

lol @ religion

In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Eral
Kopi Luwak
Joe, please delete the ignorant, simplistic and highly offensive comments you made in that last post.
:badmood:

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Joe
Coffea Canephora
What was ignorant about what I said?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lara
Member Avatar
Kopi Luwak
Eral
Jul 4 2007, 07:54 AM
lara: I am struggling with the question of how do they deal with it? What context can it be in?
Christians (for the most part) have moved on from the evangelical conversion-or-be-damned thing: even the Pope accepts that other religions are bone fide ( I'm sure that's because he thinks Roman Catholicism is the most bone fide) and we generally accept that if people want to cover or not wear buttons they have the right to do so.
The idea of having to discuss whether non-Muslims have the right to live seems outrageous. It suggests that the idea has legitimacy. You know, maybe Osama and his buddies are right. It's insane.

I remember once a Muslim cleric explaining conflict over Israel with the statement "Islam is not a pacifist religion." I see that as an essential difference b/w Islam and other religions (being honest about it, that is) but I guess I can't understand how hating other people you don't know can become so consuming.

Well, I'm not sure how valid this is, but someone once pointed out to me that Islam is a younger religion than Christianity and Judaism, for two, and hasn't had as mucht time to hash out its philosophy. Look at Christianity when it was the age of Islam and you'll see a lot of crusaders riding around trying to create holy empires. There's a lot of violence in our religion, as well, as the religion-haters often point out, but most of us take it in context. Yes, to me it sounds insane, as well, but these are people coming from a place, a time, a culture where it's not considered insane, it's considered a serious theological issue and it's not being debated enough, it's not being brought forward and discussed and placed in context of the greater world; it's being debated in a context where jihad is obviously a real war on this earth involving weapons and it's going on all around people all the time.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Joe
Coffea Canephora
Just look at Jesus vs. Muhammad, though. Muhammad was a warlord, quite the opposite of Jesus.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Krazy
Member Avatar
I haz powah!
Lara, I saw that point made by a prominent historian (David Starkey) here on a TV program.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Regullus
Member Avatar
Reliant
The Crusades weren't one sided. There is a history of Islamic expansionism. I don't think pointing out 1100 yrs ago a people were more civilized than another civilization is particularly a trenchant point. Nor am I particularly sure it was terribly civilized for any but a fraction of its population. Neither do I think the problems of Islam (of which there are legions) are particularly the fault of the West or Israel

Most of the leadership are from educated or priviledged backgrounds.

tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
underdog
Member Avatar
Irish Breakfast
Islam says to convert everyone either by force or submission, the crusades were an attempt to stop the expansion if islam, which had by that time spread from Mecca area to take over the 90% christian Iran,(yes Iran was 90% christian then), to Syria, Isreal, egypt all of northern Africa, southern Spain, and spreading into greece, and europe.
If it hadn't been stopped there, we wouldn't be here with all the tech advances that we have today.
The people were either converted, executed, or forced to pay a large tax, (jizya) to live, and were 2nd class citizens, (Dhimmi)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

Most of the 'peace loving' muslins believe the same thing about converting the entire world to islam, they think it will be done over time, slowly converting people, (or imposing their laws and rules on others(which is being done around the worls already)) but with out killing others, other muslims don't want to wait as long, and see no problem with killing others, it is in the koran that if you die in the process if killing infidels, (you and me) and spreading isalm, you will be rewarded bu allah, with the 72 virgins, wine that don't get you drunk and all kinds of foods etc, everything a 7th century nomad woud want.


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Eral
Kopi Luwak
:snow: for Joe.

Underdog, my whole point is that the people we saw riding burning cars into Glasgow airport were not 7thC nomads. Please stop using put-downs and offensive terms in this discussion. :angry:
It is ridiculous to say "most". There are millions of Muslims in the world. I know Muslims who don't think everybody should be converted or blown up. They're just people living their lives according to their beliefs. We see people on the TV spouting a lot of crap, and they represent views held in some communities - but I really can't come at them being widely held.
The Crusades didn't stop Islam: the Christians lost.
The treatment of dhimmis as described in Wiki was pretty much standard for anyone living in a culture with a different religious base, except that for dhimmis it was actually pretty good. Jewish people living in Christian cultures would have considered those generous.
Check out the subject of the Hadrianic Persecutions.

Where on earth does the idea that Islam is anti-technology come from? The Taliban? They aren't exactly representative of Muslims as a whole. That's kind of why there's a war in Afghanistan - the Muslim people there didn't like living under a terror regime.

I understand poor, ignorant people having a false understanding of "The West" or of Israel - and I consider the people who teach those false understandings to be insular, hateful and of promoting war and misery. They achieve nothing except the continuing cycle of violence, and are directly responsible for the deaths caused.
Similarly, I can understand people who are under threat from fanatics not having a terrifically positive view of them: but when they expand their feelings to include all of the other group, they are also guilty of contributing to violence.

lara's point about it being a youngish religion makes sense to me: and what we are seeing is the conflict the Church had at the time of the Inquistions, Galileo, and all that other stuff that makes it so hard to say what a great religion Christianity has always been.
That people are prepared to give up their lives for a pointless, violent act is not new in the course of any religion.

Humans. We are so schmucky. :'(

I am down to hoping that some of the young men arrested will be found innocent.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lara
Member Avatar
Kopi Luwak
underdog
Jul 5 2007, 03:40 PM
Most of the 'peace loving' muslins believe the same thing about converting the entire world to islam, they think it will be done over time, slowly converting people, (or imposing their laws and rules on others(which is being done around the worls already)) but with out killing others

If that is true, I don't see how it differs much from most Christians...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
underdog
Member Avatar
Irish Breakfast
You don't have Christians blowing themsleves up for a promise of 72 virgins.
Offensive terms?? :huh1:

The dark ages came about because Christianity started to move away fromit's original roots, and became a man based religion, you could buy indulgences to allow you to sin, nowhere in Christianity does it allow that, it was Martin Luthers reformation that moved the church away from that kind of thinking.

All of the original (western)scientists were Christians they started out looking to use science to prove the existance of God, they wanted to find out the laws that were used by God in creating the universe.
Muslims on the otherhand, (at least at the time) if you wanted to look for what laws were used by God (allah) to create the universe would imply that God (allah) was limited by the laws of the universe, muslims believe that allah is supreme and cannot be limited, and therefore research into what laws were used in creating the universe would be blasphemy as you are saying allah is limited by the laws of the universe
.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lara
Member Avatar
Kopi Luwak
Look, I'm Christian and I don't understand how anyone could go to war ever at all, although I seem to be among a minority of Christians. It doesn't mean that many Christians (look at Bush and Blair, for examples) don't think it's not only okay, they seem to think it's their moral imperative to do so in the name of spreading their own ideals of democracy and freedom. No, they're not blowing up cars and killing people in markets, they're flying jets and dropping bombs and not worrying about "collateral damage." I certainly prefer the B & B view of what's right over the extremist Islamicists' desired world state, but I don't think it's fair to say "well look at all the screwed up people in this religion, it's obviously a bad religion that causes wars" about Islam any more than I think it's fair to say such a thing about Christianity.

In your earlier post you seem to imply that even the peace-loving Muslims are wrong because they think the world will be converted to Islam through peaceful means, and you seem to use that as a justification for villification of the religion. I simply pointed out that many Christians feel they're marching slowly toward a similar end, and I don't see much difference between peace-loving Muslims who are sure they're right and everyone else is wrong and peace-loving Christians who are sure they're right and everyone else is wrong.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
underdog
Member Avatar
Irish Breakfast
I didn't think I said or tried to imply that peace loving muslims are wrong, they believe, rightly or wrongly, that the world will convert to islam over time, that is neither a good or bad statement, some try to convert others peacefully some don't try to convert at all, some Christians try to convert, some don't try at all.

:Eral
I hope they lived better then these well treated Dhimmis.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/isl...ainst_chri.html
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Joe
Coffea Canephora
Quote:
 
The treatment of dhimmis as described in Wiki was pretty much standard for anyone living in a culture with a different religious base, except that for dhimmis it was actually pretty good. Jewish people living in Christian cultures would have considered those generous.


Uh...yeah, maybe in 1300. Iran still has dhimmi laws.

Quote:
 
lara's point about it being a youngish religion makes sense to me: and what we are seeing is the conflict the Church had at the time of the Inquistions, Galileo, and all that other stuff that makes it so hard to say what a great religion Christianity has always been.
That people are prepared to give up their lives for a pointless, violent act is not new in the course of any religion.


By what standard is it young? It is 1400 years old, only 600 years younger than Christianity. From its very beginnings, it was in a place of political power through Muhammad's wars. Islam's prevalence in that region has only grown in that region, as it spread and conquered the other cultures. Mormonism is young. Islam is not.

Peace-loving Muslims are not acting in accordance with their own religion. It's like Christians finding homosexuality to be entirely sin-free when the Bible clearly identifies such behavior.

Like I said before, the "peaceful" Muslims here have been tamed by our culture, our superior values concerning tolerance and reason, and not their sudden realizations that Islam is somehow not actually belligerent (because it is),
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Eral
Kopi Luwak
underdog: 7thC nomad? peace-loving in inverted commas? Can't see how it's offensive? :o Your link contains a long rant about the unfair treatment Christians receive in Muslim countries today. If this is the kind of stuff you base your opinion of Muslims on, I see why your opinion is dismissive. I feel you are being very unjust though.

I agree that the willingness of Christian cultures NOW to allow others of a different faith to build their own places of worship and practice their religions shows cultural maturity and is right. I also recognise that it is a relatively new practice for England, Australia and America.

All religious beliefs involve decision making. All of them. Every individual who calls themselves anything chooses what aspects of the traditions of their faith they observe. Islam does not say one thing, anymore than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism. There is a complex body of text and commentary accompanying every religion.
It is ridiculous to suggest that all Muslims observe and believe the same things. I believe Joe and I have already discussed how it is certainly possible for Christians to still be Christians, while rejecting elements of traditional belief. Not that he believes it. (It's NOT in the Gospels, Joe. Leviticus and St.Paul were talking Judaic laws. :rooster:)

If one more comment about "westernised" Muslims is made, I will vomit. Being able to accomodate different beliefs is due to the intrinsic characteristics of the person living in a different culture: not the "superiority" of the culture. Being able to make such accommodations shows their openess to new ideas, and their courage, and it is patronising and diminishing to speak of it otherwise.

My question was, how do people bring themselves to hate and kill people they don't know, out of a sense of righteousness?
I have a clearer understanding of the conflicts within Islam, now, and a better understanding of the verbal gymnastics some clerics use. I also have an insight into the prejudice Muslims put up with, and see how people can fall victim to fighting hatred with hatred.





Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Joe
Coffea Canephora
The Bible is a lot longer than the Gospels.

I'm really tired of people picking and choosing what they want to believe regarding the Bible. Be honest with yourself and leave the religion or accept everything it says. Otherwise you're just kidding yourself.

The Bible says what it says.

Re: Westernized Muslims: If it was the intrinsic qualities of the people, their barbaric cultures would not exist in the first place. There would be nothing from which to change.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
underdog
Member Avatar
Irish Breakfast
Quote:
 
Islam does not say one thing, anymore than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism. There is a complex body of text and commentary accompanying every religion.


Is that in inferrance that all the religions are the same?

Quote:
 
Your link contains a long rant about the unfair treatment Christians receive in Muslim countries today.

You don't believe that things like that happen in muslim countires?
I could find more then you would ever want to read, stuff that the mainstream media won't report, it would make muslims look bad.



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lara
Member Avatar
Kopi Luwak
Joe
Jul 7 2007, 02:15 AM
The Bible is a lot longer than the Gospels.

I'm really tired of people picking and choosing what they want to believe regarding the Bible. Be honest with yourself and leave the religion or accept everything it says. Otherwise you're just kidding yourself.

The Bible says what it says.

I read your post before this one and didn't respond because I didn't think it was worth it, but I am so FUCKING SICK of people telling me that I can't be me and a proper Christian at the same time, and that I fucking pick and choose what to believe in the Bible and they don't. So... you believe the earth revolves around the fucking sun? You fucking believe that I should fucking cover my head? How about an eye for a goddam eye? And yet they're the barbarians and we're the righteous good people?

Not to mention the fact that worshipping God and worshipping the Bible are two fucking different things. I'm a Christian and I believe in God and that Christ was his son, but I don't fucking believe that the Bible is God and infallible. That's such fucking bullshit.

Jesus told fucking PARABLES. When he talked about the grains of wheat, he wasn't talking about real wheat, he was telling a story to illustrate a point. So YOU know where the stories illustrate a point and where they're literally true? You got a link directly to him or something?

Fucking hell, idiotic fucking Christians make me want to hide my religion sometimes.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Joe
Coffea Canephora
Quote:
 
I read your post before this one and didn't respond because I didn't think it was worth it, but I am so FUCKING SICK of people telling me that I can't be me and a proper Christian at the same time, and that I fucking pick and choose what to believe in the Bible and they don't.


Well, think about it for a moment. What's the point in having faith in any of it if you're not going to put your faith in all of it? If some of it is wrong, isn't all of it wrong?

Quote:
 
So... you believe the earth revolves around the fucking sun?


I'm not sure why you asked this question. I don't believe the Bible makes this argument.

Quote:
 
You fucking believe that I should fucking cover my head?


No, I don't. But I'm not a Christian anymore.

Quote:
 
How about an eye for a goddam eye?


An oft-misinterpreted passage. "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" is actually a limitation, stating that a punishment must fit the crime; it must not be excessive, like "head for an eye, leg for a tooth".

Quote:
 
And yet they're the barbarians and we're the righteous good people?


Are we righteous and good? Not always, but far more often than them, and almost never barbaric.

Quote:
 
Not to mention the fact that worshipping God and worshipping the Bible are two fucking different things. I'm a Christian and I believe in God and that Christ was his son, but I don't fucking believe that the Bible is God and infallible. That's such fucking bullshit.


What is the source for your information on God and Jesus Christ? The inspiration for your values and belief in them?

Quote:
 
Jesus told fucking PARABLES. When he talked about the grains of wheat, he wasn't talking about real wheat, he was telling a story to illustrate a point. So YOU know where the stories illustrate a point and where they're literally true? You got a link directly to him or something?


Jesus told parables, but sometimes he and his apostles spoke quite literally. As did many others in the Bible.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Fully Featured & Customizable Free Forums
Learn More · Register Now
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Table 32 · Next Topic »
Add Reply