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| Religious fanatics; Stupid or crazy? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 1 2007, 10:47 PM (602 Views) | |
| Regullus | Jul 7 2007, 12:37 PM Post #26 |
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Reliant
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Why? |
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| Joe | Jul 7 2007, 05:26 PM Post #27 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Religion doesn't make sense to me. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Krazy | Jul 7 2007, 10:09 PM Post #28 |
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I haz powah!
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Woohoo, lara effing and blinding, so sexy :D |
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| Eral | Jul 8 2007, 12:43 AM Post #29 |
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Kopi Luwak
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for lara. Take a deep breath. I feel your pain. He knows what point you are making, he is avoiding discussion by nit-picking. It makes you long for a nice warhammer. Feel free to vent in Dispensing with Falsities. That video of Patrick is really charming. Joe: stop antagonising lara. Oh, and great job on the response to Regullus' question 'why'? Once again, an opportunity to actually say something and you go for Trite Response No.5. Good to hear you are no longer Christian (abandoned the struggle between what you are told and what you believe, have you? Just figured it out now?) it makes the way clear for people like me and lara to have it all our way. I was thinking I would have to wait for all the reactionaries to die: but it's going to be so much quicker if you all just give up. underdog: if we did a Venn disgram of all the different religions, we would see a lot of similarities - belief in a deity, acceptance of the divine humanity of a teacher, a set of rules that have developed over time that govern behaviour, rituals, festivals, a recorded history of the study of the important or holy texts, different interpretations of text leading to different groups within the religion, war and bloodshed in the name of their religion. Of course I believe unfair things happen in Muslim countries: but I don't believe they happen because of the Muslimness. All dominant cultures treat minorities badly. Countries with a history of dictatorship are particularly bad at allowing freedoms to their citizens. I object to that site because it implies that Islam is the cause of the injustice, not social and historical factors. The clerics in Iran who order the deaths of 16 year old girls are doing evil: but the reasoning behind it is control and power. Religion is their justification for it. 600 years ago, that's how Christian cultures operated, too. If Islam runs through the cycle the other religions have, maybe 600 years from now things will be relatively peaceful.
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| lara | Jul 8 2007, 12:51 AM Post #30 |
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Kopi Luwak
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:) Eral, I've said my piece. I'm not going to get pulled into a nit-picking argument - I've already said I think that's ridiculous and anyone who says they know what's literally true and what isn't in the Bible is full of shit. We know that Jesus came to say stop nit-picking, just love God and each other; that's good enough for me. |
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| Eral | Jul 8 2007, 01:07 AM Post #31 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Excellent. I look forward to a future where homosexuals take communion, and women are priests. :) |
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| Joe | Jul 8 2007, 02:38 AM Post #32 |
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Coffea Canephora
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I wasn't antagonizing her. There is quite a gap in the logic behind Cafeteria Christianity.
Why, thank you. If she, you, or anyone else wants to know more than that, by all means ask. I wasn't sure if she wanted the long-winded version.
I don't understand what your implication is, here. I don't find anything wrong with interpreting metaphors and parables and all that, but the Bible includes some very literal passages. If you feel that part of the Bible is flawed, then that opens up the possibility that all of it is flawed--how do you know which parts were divinely inspired, and which parts weren't? I understood that the Bible must be taken as a whole or rejected entirely as a document of truth. Instead of lying to myself and simply rejecting those things which made me uncomfortable or those things I found to be politically incorrect, I decided to reject all of it. There wasn't enough of a reason for me to believe that the Bible's and the Church's purely religious "rules and regulations" were worth enduring. The other stuff (love thy neighbor, etc...) don't require religious faith in any way to follow.
Have a blast. You can take the intellectual dishonesty, I don't need it anymore.
Before Islam, you had Cyrus the Great. After Islam...Mahmoud Ahmedenijad. Hm... |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Krazy | Jul 8 2007, 08:17 AM Post #33 |
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I haz powah!
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That all or nothing approach is well naive. The Bible was written by several authors over a very long time scale, with sometimes contradictory views on stuff. That's even before you start getting into interpretation, with all the inherent problems with that. I'm not even saying pick and choose the bits but accepting everything without thinking hard about what each bit says and the significance it has for you is strange for me to understand. I think Creationism vs Evolution is also a good example of this. I've said before I'm not a big fan of religion, and I do think people who accept religion without thinking are idiots, but I certainly respect people who have thought long and hard about their religion and decided it was for them (like lara, Reg and Eral and well you too Joe until I saw that) even if I don't agree with them. Which raises another question - how does somebody so vehement in their defence of the Bible and (conservative) Catholicism (suddenly?) shrug it off like that? So yeah, I'm very interested in hearing the long-winded story behind your rejection of religion, Joe Edit: As for lara's love God and everyone else thing - yep, sounds about right, no religion required for that, and well perhaps even God either, but that is a whole other debate. |
| "Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. " | |
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| Joe | Jul 8 2007, 04:51 PM Post #34 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Krazy, I understand what you're saying, but the Bible is not just any document. It's not like taking a history book and deciding which of its authors is more accurate than the others. The Bible's claim to truth relies on its supposed divine inspiration. If you want to believe that *all* of it was divinely inspired, fine. But when you call into question the inspiration of parts of it (especially when you question those parts on the basis that they are incompatible with our current social/political/cultural climate--i.e. they are unpalatable for you), you must also call into question the entire document. There's no way for us to figure out which parts are God's Word and which aren't--so how can you even begin to decide? Religion is more than what makes you feel good or what is significant for you. Christianity, especially. There are things you must believe or the house of cards collapses. As for my rejection of religion, it was a long process. Maybe a year or two. Part of it was hearing arguments from Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens. The other part was my realization that I would love my partner more than I would ever love God, and that I didn't feel comfortable going by certain rules and making certain sacrifices based on the words of men. Not God or Jesus or divine inspiration, but men. I have to take their word for it that they bring the Word of God, and I see no reason to do so. When I broke up with my girlfriend about 3 months ago, it was easier for me to let go of all that (incidentally, we just got back together). I actually managed to keep from long-windedness, but if you still have questions, feel free to ask. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Krazy | Jul 8 2007, 05:49 PM Post #35 |
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I haz powah!
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Divine Inspiration, written by mortals that are fallible. The Bible you read now is very different, having been translated through 2 or even 3 languages with all the errors that have crept in through that. Since we are not contemporaries of the original authors, the only way to treat the Bible is as a historical document. An important, divinely inspired one, if you like it, but still a historical document nonetheless - like the Dead Sea Scrolls.
This bit interests me. Why did you feel compelled to take other's words as the Word of God. You can think for yourself. Isn't religion supposed to be what you make of it, what's deep within you? This is probably what I was getting at before about blanket acceptance. You have to question everything and just because you don't agree with one part doesn't mean the whole lot goes out the window. As far as I can see, Christians central belief is that Jesus was the Son of God, and he came to save mankind and to teach them how to live. Nothing else really matters if you believe that - as the different sects prove in the way they worship. They all call themselves Christians. Well that's how I see it, anyway. |
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| Joe | Jul 8 2007, 07:30 PM Post #36 |
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Coffea Canephora
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If it is divine, then it is perfect. I think you and I can agree that it is not perfect.
How else would I even know Jesus existed? How would any of us know? We know only because men told us that he did, and they told us that he was also the son of God.
We're talking about Christianity, not Buddhism. It's more than "what you make of it", because "what you make of it" could be anything at all. There is actually a right and wrong way to practice Christianity.
If you're looking at the Bible as an historical document or a philosophical document, then I agree with you. But if you're taking it as the divinely inspired, infallible word of God, then I disagree entirely.
That's a *very* simplified version. Whether or not he will save people depends on how they live. We will go to Hell (whatever that is supposed to be, whether it is burning pits of fire or a lonely existence away from God) if we do not live by Jesus' words. You can't just go by this feel-good Christianity where you just talk about peace and love and tolerance, and then go and support abortion or premarital sex or homosexual sex or ignore any number of other things that are tenets of the faith.
That they call themselves Christians doesn't mean they are. There are core Christian beliefs that, if you reject them, you also reject Christianity. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Krazy | Jul 8 2007, 08:23 PM Post #37 |
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I haz powah!
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No one disputes Jesus existed - what is open to dispute is for instance when he actually lived, and whether he was the son of God. And the Bible just gives some insight into both, but doesn't definitively answer either. After all many faiths recognize Jesus as a prophet but not the Son of God despite "evidence" from the Bible.
and who decided the right way? Men. Who have no more right to say your method is right or wrong than you yourself do. If you ask me saying stuff like this is to totally miss the point of Jesus's teachings.
See, I read that and just say, you must be kidding. Tolerance is being chucked right out the window there. This stuff Eral has explained numerous times before. In fact this is why I'm more inclined to go with the Spiritualists who interpret Jesus's teachings as a way of behaving towards other people, and the values of forgiveness and love rather than the rest of the "baggage" that comes with organized religion. Which I believe is just as valid a way of interpreting the Bible and its teachings. |
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| Bex | Jul 8 2007, 08:37 PM Post #38 |
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puppet dictator
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To my way of thinking, "divinely inspired" is like saying "designer-inspired" about a pair of pants. The influence is there, but it's still only an imitation. Buddhism might seem flexible in interpretation, but the teachings are pretty clear. There have been plenty of people who consider themselves Buddhists and still use a lot of intoxicants, for example. I wouldn't argue that they're not Buddhists, just that they've got a long way to go towards enlightenment. But then, we all do. |
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I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should, but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed. -Min Jin Lee | |
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| underdog | Jul 8 2007, 09:23 PM Post #39 |
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Irish Breakfast
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Jesus came for more then just 'showing the way to live' Christianity is different from virtually all other religions, it teaches that there is only one way to heaven that is through Jesus, you have to accept him as your saviour, and believe he is the Son of God. You can't do enough good to get to heaven, it's not a matter of in the end you say 'well I did 100 million good things and only 25 million bad things so the good outweighed the bad, so I get in', or 'I gave a ton of money to the church or the poor so I get in'. God says the wages of sin are death, all sin must be punished not just most of it, all of it, to pick and choose which sins get punished makes God capricious. God sent someone to pay the debt for your sin, it was Jesus, you have a choice, no one can make it for you, you must decide for yourself, will you accept the gift of payment by Jesus, and the grace of God or not, no one can do that for you. Christians believe that Jesus is God, God is three parts, Jesus if fully God, just like God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. To make a earthly example your mind is just as much you as your body is and as your emotions are, they are all you yet your mind and emotions are different from you phisycal body. Islam confuses that with believing that Christians worship 3 gods, it's not true, it's one in 3 parts. Islam teaches that allah is apart and doesn't interfere with the affairs of man, where as Judiasm and Christianity teaches that God is interested in the affairs of man. Islam teaches that you get to heaven by doing your daily prayers, giving to the church and other things, but the point is you still get to heaven or fail to, by your own deeds, do enough good deeds you get in otherwise not. Buddahism teaches that through mediations and reincarnation you will pay off your karma and can eventually ascend to become a/with buddah. You still get there by doing things and by your deeds. |
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| Joe | Jul 8 2007, 09:26 PM Post #40 |
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Coffea Canephora
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This is not true.
Insight? There's no insight about those things. The only insight is that the writers wanted you to believe in his divinity, but there is no insight as to whether or not he was actually divine.
Uh...right. Because they're the ones who authored the damn thing.
Actually, they do, because they wrote it all down. If you accept one thing they say as truth, how can you reject other things? How can you say that one claim is truer than another? On what do you base those conclusions?
And what was the point of his teachings?
The Bible at times is intolerant. If you don't like intolerance of certain lifestyles and practices, find another religion. Otherwise you're just lying to yourself.
That's fine, but just don't call those people Christians.
It's not interpretation as much as it is ignoring large parts of the Bible. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Joe | Jul 8 2007, 09:28 PM Post #41 |
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Coffea Canephora
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And underdog did a much better job than I at summarizing the core of Christian belief. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Krazy | Jul 8 2007, 10:13 PM Post #42 |
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I haz powah!
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@underdog. I seem to remember the Church did do such things as sell dispensations to offset sins in the middle ages, so I don't know where you get that idea from. In fact the Church is (in)famous as an institution for extorting money on the grounds of salvation of mortal souls. So what's changed? When you say, "God says...", problem I have is that he didn't. Someone said that God did in a document which (on which we agree) is not perfect. Not the same thing at all. So can I ask, in the Anglican church, there are women ministers and a big split over gay ministers. Some pro/some against. Are you saying they are not Christians? Since we agree the Bible is not perfect - how am I to know which bits are "authentic" and which not. Shouldn't I treat it all with suspicion before accepting it? Which then leads to the problems over whose interpretation is right? |
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| Krazy | Jul 8 2007, 10:17 PM Post #43 |
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I haz powah!
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Exactly. |
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| Joe | Jul 8 2007, 10:38 PM Post #44 |
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Coffea Canephora
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"The Word of God" is quite a bit more than "influence". |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| underdog | Jul 9 2007, 01:36 AM Post #45 |
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Irish Breakfast
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@Krazy Yes in the middle ages they did sell dispensations, that is not a part of Christianity, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs in previous postis the crux of biblical or fundamental Christianity, if a church is teaching anything other then that it isn't biblical Christianity, I never said they didn't sell dispensations. Evangelical Christians believe that when you accept Jesus that the Holy Spirit will come live with you in your heart, you will experiance God being with/in you. I don't think there is anything against women being priest/ministers. but there is a probelm with homosexual ministers, it clearly states (you're going to make me go dig it up. :) ) Ephesians 5:1-7 1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them. It also states in Lev 18:22 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. There have been several ministers that have had sexual affairs, being a Christian doesn't make you immune to sin, or falling, but are you willing to confess that what you did was wrong, ask forgiveness from God, and turn away from your sin? A homosexual minister it would seem isn't ready to admit that what he is doing is a sin, and turn away, and yes he can turn away. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=56487 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=56481 |
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| Eral | Jul 9 2007, 02:01 AM Post #46 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Joe: your capacity for endlessly repeating yourself makes me think you have your keyboard set on automatic. You haven't stopped believing. What a piss weak renunciation! It completely fails as a religious crisis. Having realised that the rules you have imposed on yourself are impossible to live by (duh!) you are claiming to have given up religion. 'Intellectual dishonesty'? underdog's description of damnation is based more on the Judaic representation of God, rather than the Christian one. The God of Judaism is all powerful, and unknowable. He will punish and reward and mere humans cannot understand him. The God of Christianity is a forgiving father. He forgives your sins if you repent. I really don't see all that much difference between Christianity, Islam and Buddhism in the way underdog has described them. 'Live a certain way, you'll achieve a reward.' Do you believe religion means obedience to a set of rules and reward in the afterlife, or a guide to making choices in this life? Are you a 'fundamentalist' or 'progressive'? 'faithful' or 'apostate'? It's all interpretation. There isn't one way, though we would like the security of certainty. Everybody thinks they have The Answer: because everybody has to find what is true to them. Some people don't struggle with it: it is senseless to them, and call themselves atheist or agnostic. Some people become Scientologists, because they need a set of rules but don't like any of the traditional ones. People can do evil or good acting on their religious beliefs. You can condemn the religion, or the person. re: Ephesians. It's not in the Gospels. |
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| Joe | Jul 9 2007, 06:01 AM Post #47 |
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Coffea Canephora
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It's not my fault I have to repeat myself to get my point across.
Uh...what the hell are you talking about? Menopause eating at your senses, now? That might be a new symptom. What about my "renunciation" is not acceptable for you? What about it is insincere or phony?
That's because it wasn't a crisis at all. It was a calm, gradual transition.
No, not impossible. I just don't see a reason to live my life as Christian anymore than I see a reason to live by Muhammad or Zeus.
Repentance being the key. You, however, seem to think that none of us have anything for which to repent.
Isn't it obviously both?
If it's all interpretation, then every interpretation is legitimate as long as the interpreter finds his or her own truth in it. And that means that it is all pointless. Make up your own religions, then. Why name it Islam or Christianity or Islam if all you're going to do is just pick what you like, throw out what you don't, and make up the rest?
It depends on the situation.
Who decided Ephesians was non-canonical? Who decided only the Gospels hold relevance? |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| lara | Jul 10 2007, 12:49 AM Post #48 |
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Kopi Luwak
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So... in my personal religion, God sent Jesus to die for our sins - we were all fucking up big time, so God became flesh so he could walk among us and let us know how fucked up we were and give us an example of how to live, and because he lived as a man, he also had to die - for our sins. What did Jesus say? Stop judging each other based on stupid little rules like how many steps you can take to get to the synagogue on the sabath without breaking the law, because that's got nothing to do with God. Be kind to the taxcollecters and whores (the scum of the earth, in other words). Love each other, take care of each other, do not hold yourself superior to others. Love God, love each other. Chuck all these stupid little rules. And people take the book that, imo, delivers that message quite plainly, and use it to make a whole new list of little rules one must follow in order to be a true follower of Christ, and then they effing fight over whether or not they're following the rules properly. As far as I can see, they're just proving how badly we need a forgiving God, and how incredibly merciful he is not to just turn his back on all of us in disgust. And I do not believe hell in any traditional sense of the word. And I am, honestly, quite proudly Christian. |
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| Joe | Jul 10 2007, 12:56 AM Post #49 |
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Coffea Canephora
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He didn't say chuck the rules. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| lara | Jul 10 2007, 01:41 AM Post #50 |
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Kopi Luwak
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He said there are two: Love God, love your neighbour. That's what I try to live by. And for me, that's enough - with this argument, and from Christianity. |
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for lara. Take a deep breath. I feel your pain. He knows what point you are making, he is avoiding discussion by nit-picking. It makes you long for a nice warhammer. Feel free to vent in Dispensing with Falsities. That video of Patrick is really charming.

8:54 AM Jul 11