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| Religious fanatics; Stupid or crazy? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 1 2007, 10:47 PM (600 Views) | |
| Joe | Jul 10 2007, 02:07 AM Post #51 |
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Coffea Canephora
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He said a lot more than that. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Jul 10 2007, 02:12 AM Post #52 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Thank you lara.
Joe: I'll see you in Dispensing with Falsities. Menopause. It's not an entirely new non sequiteur, because you have cast nasturtiums on my fertility before, but it was new-ish. Good to see you making an effort.
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| Regullus | Jul 13 2007, 02:07 PM Post #53 |
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Reliant
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The London car-bomb plot was designed to kill women. Whatever happened to Arab feminism? |
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| Eral | Jul 14 2007, 02:29 AM Post #54 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Very very interesting. Christopher Hitchens' article, the first one, is a bit on the scaremongering side. He makes references to the plan, but doesn't quote the exact source: and his references to inbred communities swelling ever larger and breeding only hate are well, unhelpful. The nightclub bombing attempt sounds exactly the same plan as that used in Bali. Initial bomb inside the bar, then a second outside. I'm sure the bombers wished to inflict damage on people clubbing, and I'm sure they have a dim view of women who go clubbing: but umm, they're loony. What does he propose as a solution? Deportation? Banning Islam? It all makes Mr. Aly's article even clearer to me: more discussion, more mainstream views being circulated is needed. Arab feminism is alive and kicking: feminism regularly goes in a cycle of prominence and invisibility. The women wearing hidjab are protecting themselves. Very sensible if you ask me. He dismisses the number of women in university as not important - and asks where the feminists are. Umm, idiot, see all those women in university? The violence that we see against women - honour killings, beatings, etc etc - is a direct reaction to the freedom being achieved by women. It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with power. It happens in every culture. Every religion has "laws" repressing women. It would be nice if a few more imams popped up and said, "Stop killing your wives and daughters, it's un-Islamic", but unfortunately, the only thing that will stop this behaviour is more and more women rebelling and causing societal change. Which takes a really long time, and the more progress made, the greater the level of opposing violence. Sad fact of life. Lucky women are so tough and brave, hey? |
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| lara | Jul 14 2007, 06:25 AM Post #55 |
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Unregistered
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IRT feminist Muslims: Shirin Ebadi, Nobel Peace Prize winner |
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| The Phenomenon | Jul 14 2007, 11:31 PM Post #56 |
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Hot Chocolate
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Well that won't happen. Not anytime soon. And if it did it would not make any difference. Imams popping up saying so would rather be labeled as un-Islamic, because whoever they are they would be a vast minority. Or it would be seen as someone polishing a western knob like Pakistan. It would be seen as an attack on men's rights. Women, after all, fit in somewhere after the family dog in the food chain. These men who beat their wives and daughters [near]death do not want to change. As things stand now, they are in ultimate control. They have the power. The only way this will ever change is if the environments they are living in changes. When you are in poverty, growing up to be a sophisticated, educated, well-meaning human being that cares about women's rights is real low on the priority list. Instead you are working towards your next meal, and you see your wives and daughters as assets. Hell much more laid-back religions like Hinduism can't even manage something decent. Just look at how a widow stands to be treated in India. Fundie/Fanatical Islam is a much larger and crueler animal. Oh, and Christianity has 10 laws. None of them have anything to say about women. Any additional bull is sect specific. Oh and hi sorry I crashed the party
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| Regullus | Jul 15 2007, 01:28 AM Post #57 |
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Reliant
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Not at all. The more the merrier. :) IRT Eral - There is a Harvard incest study being done in Riyadh due to the fact there's a lot of incest. I believe I mentioned this before in the German incest thread. |
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| Eral | Jul 15 2007, 01:52 AM Post #58 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Drop in any time Phenomenon. I wish you had picked a usename I caould spell or say, though. I agree that poverty and lack of education are the biggest women-killers. But the reason those men are beating their wives and daughters to death is because things are changing. The violence is meant to scare the other women into submission and take back control. It isn't working. I also think the woman-hatred expressed by fundamentalist Muslims is cultural, not religious based. Christianity has a shocking record on treatment of women, regardless of sect: we started with the main ten rules, and then got busy. Religion has always been used as an excuse for denying women rights. The more intense the religious belief, the more repressive the customs are for women. I used to wonder why Saudi Arabia, which is such a rich country, has such terrible customs regarding women. Then I figured out where Mecca is. :rolleyes: |
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| Bex | Jul 15 2007, 02:00 AM Post #59 |
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puppet dictator
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He's used to being called Phenom anyway. Hi! |
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I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should, but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed. -Min Jin Lee | |
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| The Phenomenon | Jul 15 2007, 02:08 AM Post #60 |
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Hot Chocolate
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I think its being going on all along, (was much worse in the past more likely too), you just never read about it in the paper. I don't think anything has changed or is changing for your average Islam wife in oh let's say Sudan. Disobeying daddy is a no no. The culture in these societies, unlike the western world we are living in, is dictated by religion. Its one and the same thing and really cannot be separated. Oh and I replied to your statement that all religions have laws suppressing women. I won't pretend that women's rights haven't been violated in the name of Christianity, but the religion itself has no laws of that kind like Islam does, for instance. And like Bex said, call me Phenom. Everyone else does :) |
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| The Phenomenon | Jul 15 2007, 02:12 AM Post #61 |
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Hot Chocolate
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*poke* hewwo |
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| lara | Jul 15 2007, 03:00 AM Post #62 |
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Unregistered
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*waves* I'm not logged in because I'm at work... |
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| Eral | Jul 15 2007, 03:14 AM Post #63 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Phenom is something I can spell and say.
:) There are people who will tell you that Islam doesn't have laws about it either: that the Koran says men and women are equal. It is the customs of the culture that have lead to the practices we see. Very conservative Jewish sects have the same customs on covering and sequestering as Muslims groups - though not to the point of seperate rooms in the house for the women. Greek Orthodox communities have a custom saying a woman is "unclean" after giving birth and should stay at home for 40 days, same as in Muslim groups. Just not many do. :lol: I have no doubt that life continues to be pretty horrible for average women everywhere religious loonies are in charge: small steps towards progress are made, there's a backlash, things go backwards. But women are very persistent. Women in Afghanistan are still wearing the burqa, but the schools are full of little girls. Female genital mutilation is being addressed by African governments, by starting information programs in communities directed at women. Micro-credit loans are giving women financial independence in countries were owning one cow means you are wealthy. re: Riyadh and incest. I am not suggesting that inbreeding due to religious conformity isn't real. All I'm saying is, the same can be said for any community where marrying 'in' is a cultural practice. I object to Hitchens' implication that Muslims are a threat. It's racist, and unhelpful. The people teaching and believing that killing infidels is good are a threat. But that isn't all Muslims. Inbreeding isn't causing doctors to blow up Glasgow Airport: is it a sense of isolation and injustice and lack of purpose in life? Why does the idea that infidels are the enemy hold such resonance for people who grew up in Western countries? Articles like Hitchens' dismiss those questions and only fuel people's fear and ignorance. |
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| lara | Jul 15 2007, 04:06 AM Post #64 |
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Unregistered
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My great-grandparents were first cousins. I blame their marriage for my sinus problems. :P |
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| Regullus | Jul 15 2007, 02:29 PM Post #65 |
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Reliant
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I'm not sure it's necessarily religious. Religious groups tend to want or demand their adherents to marry within the religion and sooner or later in a small group your going to marry a relative. Incest (the more benign type) is usually done for consolidation of assets, consolidation of power, insularity, or isolation (Nobody else is available.) The only thing I've read indirectly on the subject was Naguib Mahfouz's Cairo Trilogy which has double first cousins marrying (two brothers married two sisters and their children married). I didn't get the impression that it had anything to do with religion. Ruling monarchies are excellent examples of consolidation consanguinity. The Ottomans seem to be the exception to the usual dynastic politics. I'm a bit hazy on this but I believe the Ottoman rulers for a period of time did not allow rulers birthed by Turkish mothers. Possibly fear of inheritance claims? I believe other claimants to the throne, younger siblings, would be killed at the time of the heir ascending the throne. I read all that in passing some years ago and my recollection could be inaccurate. The US Randolph Family for some generations married first cousins for consolidation of assets and reasons of isolation, weren't many people to marry. After several generations problems started to arise, a once quite brilliant family started to have both physical and mental problems. People chained in the attic and all. I have all that on very good authority. :ph43r: :D |
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| Joe | Jul 15 2007, 10:19 PM Post #66 |
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Coffea Canephora
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2:282: And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Nibsi | Jul 15 2007, 11:24 PM Post #67 |
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Te zijner tijd
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Your point? I'd like to point out that verse 2:282 does not mean that women are inferior or less intelligent than men. The verse refers to the fact that women are *different* from men, physically, physiologically, you name it. It means that women and men have different areas of specialization, and in this example, women are assumed to be ruled by their emotions more than men are, and therefore two female witnesses would be more reliable. |
| -Nibby | |
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| Joe | Jul 15 2007, 11:54 PM Post #68 |
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Coffea Canephora
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I'm sorry, but there's no implication that that particular difference in women is not an inferior quality. The implication is that women are not rational or trustworthy. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Nibsi | Jul 16 2007, 04:21 AM Post #69 |
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Te zijner tijd
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Okay, so what was the reason you referred to that verse? |
| -Nibby | |
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| Joe | Jul 16 2007, 05:20 AM Post #70 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Eral was quite sure that there is nothing in Islam itself that places women in a lesser position. I posted that quote to show an instance where the opposite is true. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Jul 16 2007, 10:28 AM Post #71 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I was confused too. I thought Joe was quoting from the Bible, and wondered what his point was. Tons of stuff like that in the good book. Joe: interpretation and commentary. Tends to happen around religious texts. One group will say "See? This proves point X" while another group argues "Aha! But this supports point Y." I said:
For some oe who loves quoting, you are extraordinarily inaccurate sometimes. lara must be relieved all she inherited was sinus problems, then. :lol: |
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| Joe | Jul 16 2007, 11:41 PM Post #72 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Those cultures are inseperable from Islam. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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| Eral | Jul 17 2007, 11:08 AM Post #73 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I am not going to enter into further discussion with you, Joe. Your one-sentence responses are obviously meant to elicit a following post of "What do you mean?", but I just don't find you interesting enough to bother. Your immunity to new ideas is extremely tiresome. You come across as racist and ignorant. I didn't want to let any of your statements stand without rebuttal, because I find them offensive, but neither do I feel like continuing to fruitlessly discuss a different POV with you. |
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| Joe | Jul 17 2007, 11:37 PM Post #74 |
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Coffea Canephora
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Alrighty. |
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In the shadow of the light from a black sun Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection? I'm freezing | |
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It's not an entirely new non sequiteur, because you have cast nasturtiums on my fertility before, but it was new-ish. Good to see you making an effort.

8:54 AM Jul 11