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Why must children obey?; parental rant
Topic Started: Oct 13 2007, 08:06 PM (110 Views)
lara
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Kopi Luwak
I'm still uncertain whether I want this to be its own thread - perhaps this is something I'd just like a random chat over, not a dedicated thread - but it's really irritating me.

My husband says our daughter "has to learn to obey." Now, I have to find proper time to discuss this with him, but as far as I can tell, the only reason she has to learn to obey is "because we are her parents."

That, in my opinion, is the kind of logic that allowed pedophile priests to keep abusing children.

Personally, I think she needs to learn self-discipline, but since she's only 3 and hasn't, we have to help her. If I need her to get dressed, I will jolly her and help her and get out the door in (usually) a fairly cheerful frame of mind. He will order her about and yell (not always, but recently it seems frequent) until they're both miserable. His way is no faster than mine and only seems to accomplish producing a sullen child who doesn't want to spend time with her dad because "mommy's the nice one." Well, what do I say to that? Lately, it's true.

What use is learning to obey? How is this going to help her grow up and become a productive citizen?

I don't understand, other than his upbringing, why he has this preoccupation with making a normal stubborn experimenting three-year-old do things "because I say so."

Can anyone give me one simple reason why she must obey?

(And no, I'm not a pushover. I tell her why she has to do something and if she doesn't, there is a consequence. If she comes up with a reasonable alternative that she finds preferable, that's okay, too. I just don't think she needs to do something simply because I say so.)
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
lara
Oct 13 2007, 09:06 PM


That, in my opinion, is the kind of logic that allowed pedophile priests to keep abusing children.


Good question. But your extreme example aside, what about you telling her "Don't get into strangers' cars.", "Don't stick your arm out of the car window" etc

The simple reason is she is still learning, she is not old enough to understand the reasons behind your commands nor make all her own decisions and she has to learn to accept someone's authority. For school when you are not there, for later life in a career etc - she will have to obey orders on command or be labelled a troublemaker. Right or wrong that is the way of things.

But I do take your point about self-discipline and independent thinking as good things to cultivate, but at 3, she's a little young (imo only for what it's worth) to not have to follow your orders.

The way you phrased it though sounds though you are more concerned about the right and wrong way to get her respect and hence get her to accept your authority but those are my ramblings and I am probably the last person to ask on this subject. :D


"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
When your husband says "she must learn to obey" he means "I have no idea how to deal with threeness." Get your husband to watch you, lara, and find stuff on child development for him to read. Her behaviour is normal: she is learning how to take responsibility for herself and control her actions and exercise control over others: and it's bewildering and difficult and exciting for her, and people not used to kids can find the contrariness really difficult. Hell, people used to kids find it difficult.

Your husband needs to identify what she is doing that's bugging him, then evaluate calmly if his expectation is realistic, and then what he can do to change the flashpoint. She's too slow? Make putting on socks a race. She doesn't want to wear what has been chosen for her? Have two things she can choose from. Your husband needs to learn to jolly. Simple as that.
It would be nice if Threes could just get dressed when they are told, but the sad fact is you are going to have to wait for Four or Five for that.

I think lara's approach is exactly right, Krazy: and getting respect is the key to having children accept authority. They won't respect you if they can walk all over you, but they won't respect you if they are afraid of you, either.
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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Well, yes, Eral, but his flashpoint seems to be "she doesn't jump when I say jump," or whatever the case is.

OF COURSE she doesn't. She's three! Hell, he doesn't jump when I say jump, and he's 44.

I think he was raised that way and he thinks it's reasonable to expect her to just do as he tells her. I suspect my mother-in-law is reinforcing that idea.

Perhaps that is unfair.

Agh, we have to talk, I guess. But to expect three-year-old to do what she is told how she is told when she is told, well, yes, it's unreasonable, in my opinion. He seems to think she should follow his orders like a well-trained dog - but there are more, and they are more complex.
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Regullus
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Reliant
I agree with both lara and Eral over l's husband. My mother's more along the lines of lara's husband and we have different ideas on child raising. Me, I ignore my mother, you are going to have to talk to him and hash it all out and find a comprimise.

My mother was very structured in the early years raising us. We were put in a playpen for an hour, say, and we stayed in the playpen for the hour. A nap was a nap. If the child didn't nap, he still stayed in his crib for nap time and no amount of crying or demands from the child changed that. After the nightly bedtime ritual, the child stayed in bed with the door closed and she set bedtime. If the child had a reason to get up in the middle of the night, my parents would respond but they wouldn't respond to false excuses. In the morning, routine was followed and that was that. Now when it came to toilet training, she was very flexible and was never cross if someone had to go or made a mistake.

My mother had three kids with 3.5 age difference and invariably she would have everybody dressed and waiting to go out the door and my brother would always say, "Potty! Potty!" necessitating running up two flights of stairs with a strip down on the way and she never got frustrated although there would barely be a drop at the end of the run.

Her attitude on crying is (if it doesn't involve injury) "crying is good." I don't let Lily cry much or for long. For my mother, if they do something wrong then there should be consequence. I don't disagree that there should be consequence but it depends on the action. Touching things is not an action worthy of consequence, ignoring a no is.

I think self-discipline is the greatest gift a parent can give to a child and I think its learned from observation of the parents and guidance from the parents and not she must obey but there are times when things are non-negotioable.

For us there are a few non-negotiable issues. The car seat is not negotioable, holding hands is not negotioable, random acts of cruelty to the dogs or Mommy are not negotiable. Misbehavior I try to re-direct, not always successfully.

tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Funny, Reg, but I actually say to Katya: "This is not negotiable." I haven't heard her say it to her stuffed animals yet, so I suppose I don't say it that often, but when I do say it, she generally gets the picture. She might cry, but she does as I tell her.

I talked to Gordon last night. He still says he thinks she needs to obey. I realized that part of the problem is that he wants her to obey sometimes, and other times, he jollies her along. She of course doesn't always obey, and she can't always know when it's one of those times when she darn well better (especially if mom's around to help to get her to behave), so it can be a bit confusing. Of course, it's when he's feeling short-tempered that she must obey becomes an issue around small things, and him short-tempered and her weepy and fragile tend to feed off each other. :( But I also realized that we're really not that far apart on the parenting thing. He does have good parenting skills, they just tend to vanish when he's feeling crap (me too), and that's when this becomes an issue and I need to rant.

I also realized that part of this is me not wanting to be like my dad. My dad taught us we should think for ourselves, then expected us to come to his conclusions. In other words, he expected us to obey because he was so infinitely rational that it only made sense for us to do as he said. The questioning part was more for other people. As a result, we avoided talking to my father about things. We'd talk to our mom and then tell her our decisions, and let her inform our dad, so we didn't have to deal with the arguments and occasional rages (poor mom). I want my kid to trust me. I want her to continue to call me when she's doing something she knows she shouldn't. She'll call me when she's misbehaving because she's having a hard time with her impulse control, but she does want to be good - she just needs my help. That's cool. I hope she continues to trust me that way. (She's doing it less as she gets older - now she'll occasionally go to her room and do something she shouldn't so I won't see her and tell her not to.)

Ag, parenting baggage just makes this all harder. I want to be the parent my mother was. We loved her immensely and trusted her deeply and she was very hard to disappoint, so we tried never to disappoint her. My father got disappointed and it was awful.
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Regullus
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Reliant
It sounds as if some good headway made and you're both on the same page.

As to feeding off each other. Unfortunate but it happens to all of us. Lily fussing about getting her hair brushed doesn't bother me when I have all the time in the world, when we're on a deadline and I'm chasing her around the room, yeah, it becomes a big deal. I know she understands I'm exasperated but not why. :(
tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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Bex
puppet dictator
Hmm.

My mother never tried to teach us to obey unquestioningly, or not that I recall. There needed to be reasons for doing things. She must have given us very good reasons for listening to mother, because we typically did obey her without question past that certain age where logic begins to take shape. "We" is my brother and myself, as logic continues to not apply in my sister's world. Can't be helped, in her case, and yelling won't either.

"Because I said so, because I am the boss of you" has never cut it with me, and I credit my mother with instilling that attitude. I'm perfectly capable of getting along with a boss I disagree with and so forth, but not because I'm a doormat. Nuance is important.

My father was a more authoritarian parent. I apparently learned to block him out at a very young age and blithely ignored anything I considered unreasonable. Therefore, he left me alone and picked on my brother, who ached to please the man and had a very hard time of it. Their relationship is still difficult. On a brutally honest level, I'd say my relationship with my father is civil, even pleasant, but far from deep, and it's very easy to keep it that way.
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
My grandfather lived with us for a few years. He was in his seventies, mum was in her late fifties. He used to get up very early, and went to bed early. As The Father, it was his job to guard the children, until they were safely in bed. If my dad wasn't home, he would refuse to go to bed until everyone else did. So, he'd be sitting, nodding off to sleep, then desperately shaking himself awake. So mum would pretend she was going to bed, "night Dad," and then when he was in bed, she would sneak back downstairs and watch TV or sew or whatever. Very quietly. At no time did she consider pointing out that she was a grown woman, and would go to bed when she pleased.

When she discussed this her sisters they all agreed that sneaking back downstairs really annoyed them. One auntie confessed that she had actually told Grandad "no, I won't go to bed." They were aghast at what they viewed as a lack of respect for his authority. Many years later, Mum brought that up as proof that auntie was not a good person.

Obeying. Catholics are different.
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Krazy
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I haz powah!
What's this nonsense I see written here! Children should be seen and not heard. Back chat and Disobedience will not be tolerated, and dealt with swiftly and severely with several lashings of the cat o'nine tails!

See if they don't obey you then.... 'course these days that'll earn you a stay at her majesty's pleasure doing time for child abuse.

I'm just being silly, I see/have similar experiences with niece and nephew. Kids are kids and can be difficult at times. I find they often get more feisty after some sort of carbohydrate (sugar rush) when after being an angel all day they turn into some little devil.
"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Nibsi
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Te zijner tijd
Some good old Maddox.

Posted Image

:lol:
-Nibby
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Regullus
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Reliant
^ :titter: :rolf: :cafe:
tempus_teapot
 
I'd like to add that at this point I have taken my Spider Jerusalem action figure and tied his wrist to my Cassidy (from Preacher) action figure just so I can work out which positions are feasible with them and which aren't.

Read that and weep, internet. Weep!

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lara
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Kopi Luwak
Krazy
Oct 15 2007, 09:16 AM
I find they often get more feisty after some sort of carbohydrate (sugar rush) when after being an angel all day they turn into some little devil.

Science keeps pointing out that sugar does not make children hyper. Of course, some scientist finally looked at parents' volumes of anecdotal evide3nce that sugary treats make their children hyper, and found that in fact, the colouring and preservatives in those sugary treats make children hyper.

Love it
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
Duh. :lol:

I give M+M's as a behavioural reward for a particularly difficult bunch of kids. The normal maximum is 5, but a bonus extra 1 can be added for achieving goals like not flying off the handle, finishing tasks, and working on problems they find really challenging and only collapsing in a teary/angry heap once. M+M's are demerited for unacceptable behaviour: saying "I can't", "you're stupid" or "I hate you" and not logging off the maths game when the bell goes.
Today, I gave one little girl the full 6 M+M's and a hug (yes, I know, hugging is :eek: :bash: :grim: but she has developed her ability to understand division :) and I was very happy) and she was off for the rest of the day. I don't know if it was the hug or the M+M's. :unsure:
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