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| Israel and Zionism; ...can we have one without the other? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 26 2008, 12:36 AM (160 Views) | |
| Eral | Apr 26 2008, 12:36 AM Post #1 |
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Kopi Luwak
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http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/arabs-...8743252064.html I was startled to find that the term "collaborator" was still in use, inside Israel. I understand a negative term being used by Palestinians, but by Israelis? Why despise the people who helped them? (We can talk about how everyone despises Russians, later. ) So I went looking for more info. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/4544311.stm What motivated them, I wonder? http://www.aad-online.org/2005/English/3-M...19-3/aad3/1.htm I am impressed at the openness of discussion at the site, and the way they stick to the issue and don't get derailed into personal attacks: but the immutability of the arguments, the absolute impossibility of any compromise is frightening and terribly sad. It's hard to know where religious belief ends and personal prejudice begins.
What's the point of ignoring the elephant in the room? Underneath all the civility and exchange lies hatred and total rejection of each other's position. I believe Israel should exist: but the more I learn about the implications of Zionism, the more it troubles me. |
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| Regullus | Apr 26 2008, 01:35 AM Post #2 |
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Reliant
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I don't understand your last sentence. Simplistically, nothing exists without reason, Zionism is a fundamental position. It gained adherents for a lot of reasons throughout history. The Jews in the article aren't looking down on the Arabs because they are collaborators, they're 'looking down on them' because they are Arab and non-Jewish, and enemy. It's about an identity. Racism, I don't know if I would really call it a racism ... perhaps exceptionalism? is hardly limited to Semites or any other peoples. Some heritages wish to retain their heritage and to dilute it is considered an affront. I suppose in the case Jewish fundamentalist identity, it would be considered an affront to God, possibly. I'm guessing on that one. You have to look at the context of these people's experience and history and not only individual history but the history, for good or ill, of a people. A sense of exceptionalism is not unusual. Neither is hypocrisy, nor the wish to survive. As to collaborators, they are rarely viewed sympathetically although most collaborators probably collaborate out of fear. Edit: Zionism Is Not Racism |
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| Eral | Apr 27 2008, 01:44 AM Post #3 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Religion is the criteria for citizenship of Israel. People of different religions can't really be citizens. They might live there, and have citizenship cards, but they don't belong. They can't belong, because then Israel wouldn't be a Jewish state.
I believe this. The existence of Israel means "Never again." But I find it difficult to accept that people of other cultures are necessarily excluded. Religion isn't a racial trait. It's a cultural identity and religious choice. Could Israel be a multi-cultural society? How can a mayor of a city say "there will never be any churches or mosques built here" in a democracy? http://www.vdare.com/gottfried/zionists.htm An interesting discussion. Most of the other links that googled up are racist anti-Semitic ones. :( |
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| Eral | Apr 27 2008, 02:55 AM Post #4 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Googling Israel and multiculturalism, rather than Zionism and multiculturalism gets you a higher standard of links. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_...ion%20and%20the They have a section on Arab Israelis, which describes projects to assist their communities. It's unclear whether the projects are planned, in process or completed, though. This has comforted me greatly: the fact that the government website acknowledges the difficulties and there are active policies in place, balances up the "drive them into the sea" brigade. Such good laws. :) My concern should not be with Zionism, perhaps, but with seperation of religion and state.
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| Regullus | Apr 27 2008, 06:09 PM Post #5 |
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Reliant
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Why are you so concerned about Israel's problems? Or lack of embrace of other cultures? What about Saudi Arabia's lack of embracing other cultures? Or Palestinians lack of embrace? Some countries' constitution forbid the ownership of land except by whomever. They do have their reasons. Some countries give greater rights to their citizens. Does one want one's country completely owned by foreigners? What about the PA's responsibilities and lacks? Why don't the Arabs do more for the Palestinian problem? IMO, the Israeli/Palestinian problem with a little give could have been solved decades ago. Many people from both sides had great initial hope with the return of the Jews to their symbolic homeland. However, you cannot dismiss the continuing enmity as the fault of one people. You cannot ignore the deep and justified roots for this enmity on both sides. This enmity is promoted and propagandized w/each new generation. IMO, the problems of the Middle East are the problems of the Middle East. |
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| lara | Apr 27 2008, 11:57 PM Post #6 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I'm sorry if this is entirely rude, but my reaction to both these sentences can be summed up with a cynical It doesn't matter how much 90% of Israelis and Palestinians want peace (and I believe at times that's been closer to true than most people imagine). All it takes is a man with a bomb strapped to him in a market or a man with an automatic rifle in a mosque -- an extremist from either side -- to end the peace, for whatever warped, nationalistic, racist, fundamentalist whacked-out reasons he has. These people have a history of conflict and the anger and outright hatred can be fanned into consuming flames with the act of one person with an agenda. And the problems of the Middle East are the problems of the Middle East? That would explain why our governments and political machinery have spent so much time, energy and money in the region, wouldn't it? Bullshit rules the day, here and there. Most people would like peace, but the area, by virtue of its creation and emphasis on religion and historic wrongs, draws fanatics, and they will not allow peace. The politicians have to deal with that reality, and sometimes exploit it for their own ends. We can't wash our hands of it. We (our countries, our ancestors) have been involved and remain involved and have some responsibility to others to try to maintain calm. |
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| Eral | Apr 28 2008, 01:18 AM Post #7 |
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Kopi Luwak
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Whenever anyone raises problematic Israeli actions or policies, the spokesperson invariably points out that the other side is much worse. As we say in the playground, "We're talking about you right now, not him. We'll get to him after you." To answer the question of why I am concerned about this: because I'm on the Jewish side, I want them to be doing the right thing. I can't barrack for them if they're not. My government is supporting Israel: America spends billions on it's defence. Are we doing that so Arab Israelis can be non-people in their own country? Coming from a culture where we know we have to drop old hatreds and prejudices in order to live together and flourish, it is bizarre to me to find that there are Israelis who cannot tolerate their neighbours: who view other citizens as enemy. What is the little boy in Sderot going to learn from his neighbour's prejudice? That Jews hate all Arabs. Great. Another bomber is born. If Jewish Israelis can't begin liking Arab Israelis, we can expect to see Lebanon bombed on a regular basis, and suicide bombers killing people in cafes forever. Regullus is right that the dispute could have been solved years ago. One side just had to swallow the gall of appearing to lose. Yasser Arafat had a gift for rejecting great deals. |
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| Regullus | Apr 28 2008, 01:50 AM Post #8 |
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Reliant
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RE: Israel/Palestine, I think the Arab leadership has been more intractable than the Jewish leadership. That's not saying the Israelis have behaved impeccably. I don't think its the individual maniac, it is the Organized terror and propaganda, sponsored and promulgated by Arab/Jewish leaders and other countries. I think the Arab leaders/nations could have done much more to ameliorate the situation. Personally, I think Arafat was very negative and corrupt. He was responsible for a lot of unnecessary suffering. I'm not suggesting the area be ignored, I'm suggesting the root problems will not be fixed from the outside alone. |
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| lara | Apr 28 2008, 02:25 AM Post #9 |
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Kopi Luwak
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And I'm suggesting the root problems won't be fixed in our lifetimes, short of armaggedon or something close. That doesn't absolve us of responsiblity for our actions. |
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| Regullus | Apr 28 2008, 04:33 AM Post #10 |
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Reliant
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Lots of people feel that way. Personally, while I'm not unsympathetic to Israel or the PA, I don't always fully understand the US's support of Israel. The relationship has been somewhat problematic over the years. Fundamentally I don't understand why Israel is such a big issue in the ME. It's tiny. It's not rich, it needs outside aid to survive. Yeah, I get Israel is unfair to the Palestinians. Also as conflicts go, it hasn't been that deadly. Yes, Israelis kill more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis. Kashmir doesn't get the ink and yet it's not entirely dissimilar. Ok, I'll say it, what is it about the Jews/Israel that seems to incense/incite/interest people so much? How about the Kurds? How about the indigenous peoples displacement? How about the Arabs? What about the Persians? How about China/Tibet? What about Russia, and on. What about ... ? Indo-Pakistani Relations
More ink, more UN resolutions, more strong feeling is about Israel/Jews than India/Pakistan, both those countries have nuclear weapons. Why is Israel so controversial? I'm thinking all this focus on Israel is a tad racist. Why do the Jews have a bad rep with Arabs? Edit: Zionist Palestinian Arab Attitudes before 1948 Pretty interesting. |
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| Regullus | Apr 28 2008, 02:48 PM Post #11 |
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Reliant
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I woke up this morning thinking that perhaps Israel/Zionism/Jews are overstated in my mind because the US is a the primary sponsor of Israel and that results in my sense of disportion. A quick way but not necessarily accurate way to see how discussed a topic is to google and see the hit counts. Some Random Searches: India - 438 m. Pakistan - 159 m. Israel - 230 million pages. Canada - 888 m. ![]() Australia - 587 m. U.S. - 5.2 billion (The formal name brings 73.3 m hits) Muslim - 55.6 m. Arab - 155 m. (10.3 m. for Arabs) Jews - 32.5 m (16.9 for the singular) Zionism - 3.08 m. Terrorism - 50 m. Bible - 136 m. Koran - 11.5 m. Torah - 7.7 m Islam - 123 m anti-Semitism 5.14 m anti-Zionism 308,000 One of the links I followed: Anti-Zionist Arab Books Criticized at Fair
Clearly, anti-Zionist! Est. Worldwide Jewish population: 13.3 m. and stagnant. Est. Worldwide Muslim population: Over 1 billion and growing. One conclusion, the US has the most hits. Edit: A Book review on Tangled Truth It's about Palestinian 'collaboration.' |
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| Eral | Apr 28 2008, 11:40 PM Post #12 |
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Kopi Luwak
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The link on collaboration is very good.
This is a quote from discussion on the Wiki article. An apt summation, I think. |
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| lara | Apr 29 2008, 05:27 AM Post #13 |
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Kopi Luwak
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I agree with that first paragraph -- it doesn't much make sense. My only explanation: Because the Holocaust was an organized pogrom carried out in a very methodical and frighteningly organized way. Because they were white people living in Europe and the rest of us white folks in the West let it happen. Because other countries sent the refugees back and they died. Because of cultural guilt. And in the U.S., I believe, because Jewish people carry a lot of clout and have a lot of money. And by the way, I haven't been reading the links, so I speak from no position of knowledge other than my years as a reporter and editor and observer. |
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| Regullus | May 1 2008, 02:10 PM Post #14 |
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Reliant
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I agree with you. I do think cultural guilt, I do think money and a strong Jewish lobby and I also think it's strategic. The first country to recognize Israel was the United States, the second was the Soviet Union. The devotion to Israel does ebb and wane. Israel's dominant interest is of course, Israel which is certainly understandable. While I don't totally agree with Carter and others, and I do understand Israeli aggressiveness, I do think Israel should return to its prior borders. I understand their wanting a buffer zones. I don't really have a problem with the desire to keep ownership within Jewish control either. I think as it stands Israel is unsustainable as a country. I also think the Arab countries should step up and cut down on the rhetoric and stop using Israel to redirect their population from lacks. |
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| Eral | May 3 2008, 02:45 AM Post #15 |
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Kopi Luwak
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The biggest difference between the Palestinian authority and Israel is that everything Israel does is to benefit Israelis, whereas the Palestinian groups seem more than happy to have people go without fuel and food. Any Israeli politician who left Israelis sitting hungry in the dark to score a political point would be out in a very short time. The most difficult thing about this discussion is that it is either/or. If you criticise Israel's actions, you are anti-Israel and it's a very short step to being labelled anti-semitic from there. For politicians schmoozing for votes, it's a permanent no go zone. |
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