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P/K vs. T/K; the possibilities
Topic Started: Jan 7 2008, 11:44 AM (1,783 Views)
luke42
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I know this isn't going to be addressed right away in the fan fiction writing process, but it's good to get this addressed and out of the way before hand. So the general consensus is that Season 3 is going to become the "romance" season. Closing season 2 out in the finale will address some important issues heading into the new season; such as a possible T/K/P love triangle.

Last night we had an informal chat addressing the potential coupling of some of the characters, namely P/K and T/K. Because not everyone could be at the chat yesterday, I thought it would be a good idea to get everyone's thoughts and opinions about this here because we won't be holding an official chat until Friday. What is everyone's opinion of P/K or T/K? Which one is more likely to happen over the other. How about the idea of a T/K/P love triangle?

I just want to get everyone's opinions of this now just in case not everyone can attend the upcoming fan fiction project chat taking place this Friday beginning around 8:00 PM (EST).
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Kimi12715
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Well according to the scene ace wrote - intended for the end of the Season 7 finale - we are starting a love triangle, with T/K an "official" couple and P on the edge, with Kimi only thinking herself & Phil as friends. I think this is the best direction for now, then at the end of Season 8 (3 in our continuation) a final decision on which couple will be successful in the end will be made.
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chuckierulz55
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To me one important thing about doing this project is creating episodes and situations that would seem consistent with what we've seen so far out of the AGU gang. I can't put my finger on why I feel this way, but doing a love triangle with T/K/P just sounds a little excessive to me. I know that just about every high school kid has crushes that they deal with, but for a story like this it would get too sappy to me to have more than one shipping situation.

Even then, based on the personalities that Phil and Kimi have displayed, those two don't seem like they'd ever like each other IMO.
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"Whatever hints you look at, whatever way you see it, Phil and Kimi are always going to be more compatible than Tommy and Kimi. For all his bluff and bluster, Tommy has ultimately grown into a bit of a wuss by AGU and hides behind flimsy excuses rather than face problems head on. Kimi would not have the patience to put up with this - she has retained her very forthright and bold nature - and therefore the whole idea would require either T or K to be wildly out of character, something which happens in nearly all T/K fics. Phil, on the other hand, posesses a sense of humour rivalling Kimi's, a sense of adventure (while Tommy has to get pushed into things), loyalty and selflessness (whereas Tommy in AGU becomes progressively more and more selfish, with Dil frequently having to pull Tommy into line). Sharing theses traits in common with Kimi while balancing her more serious side with his love of all things light and funny make them the most compatible couple in the AGU spectrum. Had they all maintained their characterisations from Rugrats, then Kimi and Tommy would be perfect for each other. But the AGU characters are different, and in that forum, Phil and Kimi are by far the most compatible."

I said this a month or so ago and I stand by it 100%. I think the characters of Tommy and Kimi are suited to crushing on each other, but any relationship between them would implode on itself. Phil and Kimi would have a far more successful relationship, due variously to their contrasting personalities.
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chuckierulz55
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Umm... Are you sure we're talking about the same Phil Deville here? :confused: The Phil I've come to recognize on the show is lazy, more immature than any other character out of the 8 main ones, and almost the most irresponsible (only Angelica tops him on that one). Though he is slightly more mature than he was as a rugrats toddler, it's only slightly more. While I can picture him being a little more mature as somebody that's 15/16, not much so. The kind of person Phil is, I think his personality as an adult would turn out to be somebody like Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy. While Kimi's personality seems to be somewhat of a Tomboy at times, I can't imagine it being to the degree that she could tolerate Phil's disgusting demeanor.

Besides, as I've said before, I want to see these eps in this project to be as authentic as possible. With all the eps that I'll be participating in for writing up, I'll be constantly asking myself: If KC was still working on the show today, would they honestly do these things with these characters? Would they really go in this direction? As far as a T K P love triangle is concerned, I would say no. T/K was the only possible AGU couple ever even acknowledged (and I emphasize possible), and because of that I think it should be the only one addressed in these psuedo seasons. I know you have strong feelings about this and I mean no offense in making this argument, but I don't want to see things be written that sound more like something that a few of the show's fans want to see because they've fantasized about it, and ultimately down the road would just seem too vague and detremental to the concept of this show. As an example, I think at times that it would be pretty cool if I got to see Chuckie turn into a ladies man and the buff athletic type, but he's been anything but that throughout Rugrats/AGU and would ruin the general criteria of it all.
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The original plan for the series - and the concept I signed on for - was that there would be no shipping, which I was perfectly fine with. But then T/K was placed in - and I don't believe it's any more accurate or likely than P/K. If you're saying "What would KC do?", T/K would never have hooked up. And even if they did, they're characters are very incompatible for a long term relationship.

High school has an extremely maturing effect on people. And yes, while Phil is lazy (something High school is also frequently effective at remedying), I wouldn't call him more immature than the others - but rather immature in different ways. Maturity has different effects on people. Angelica and Tommy are immature in their selfishness and tendency toward self-obsession, while Lil is prone to attacks of vanity. Phil is immature in a sense that he still has fun in some of the same ways he did when he was younger. His sense of humour has evolved, though - he has some of the funnier one-liners in the show and is sometimes genuinely amusing for an 11-year old.

Also, it's should be noted that it's not designed so much as a P/K/T triangle, more Phil being on the outer with his own feelings for Kimi - something that happens to a lot of teenagers. He never actually makes a move to break up Tommy and Kimi and she never is forced to make a choice between the two so it's not as much a triangle as it is unrequited feelings at the time. There has been discussion about P/K getting together long after T/K break up, although nothing has been decided yet.
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luke42
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Let's look at the real world, Klayton. What happens to kids at 15 and 16 years of age? They develop crushes and eventual relationships. Boys that have friends that are girls sometimes become more than friends. I don't have the statistics, but I'm guessing that a good majority of boy-girl friendships end up developing into something more serious. It's just the nature of the beast. To not have any sort of romance in the show just wouldn't paint a true picture. I know you might be hesitant to include any sort of pairings in the show (between characters) - but what do you make of T/K, if it was already hinted at in a previous episode? I just don't think we should deny this storyline when it happens all too frequently in the real world.

Another thing; anyone who writes any kind of couples within the AGU gang will write it tactfully and with class. We are writing this as if it will ultimately air on Nickelodeon - a network for kids. Writing it to include adult situations would be wrong and fit for Adult Swim, and that is not the direction we want to take this. So like I said, I am all for the idea of couples - as long as it is done right and the way that KC might've done it. Now, writing any kind of romance at their current ages (11-12-13) would've been unjust and seemed way too creepy. I don't deny the fact that it doesn't happen, but it's definitely frowned upon. I am much more comfortable aging the characters like we are doing and putting them in the situation of going on dates and being boyfriend and girlfriend with other classmates or with friends.

Last but not least - a "love triangle" is probably not the best phrase to describe the potential situation between Tommy, Kimi, and Phil. But, I think if done right, this could be an excellent storyline. And I'm not talking anything over the line. Just subtle hints that maybe Kimi is starting to have feelings for Phil while she's with Tommy and that she's really tearing herself up inside at the dilemma.

I agree, this is probably something that we're gonna have to have input from all sides on and it'd best that each member of the project can read it over and have a say as to whether it's being done right or should be changed. But I don't think it should be denied the opportunity to exist in the project. Just my two cents.
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chuckierulz55
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Even though I still don't think it's a good idea, I still at the same time am willing to listen to other points of view. Perhaps maybe I just need to sit down and ponder the concept a little more or something. However, whether you call this a triangle or something else, I'm also concerned about it anyway because in these episodes, I would like to see the ending result be that the whole gang is on good terms with one another because that was anything but the case in ABU. If we persue this avenue of T/K/P, I don't know how it could be worked so that neither one of those three don't have bad feelings toward the other, even if Phil didn't actually do something to break them apart. On top of that, don't you think you're being a little hard on Tommy? I know Tommy became a little arrogant and did some two timing, but he could definately be a lot worse, and I don't really invision him being a lot worse either.

And as far as Phil maturing is concerned, if the stuff we write matures his character too much, then Phil won't be Phil anymore. Therefore the kind of immaturity which he currently displays just doesn't sound like something that Kimi would tolerate.
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But Klayton, he will be Phil - but grown up. People don't lose what ultimately makes them individual - for Phil, it will always be his sense of humour, which sometimes is inappropriate, but that would evolve with his character, so it gets expressed in different ways. The idea of characters remaining static and not evolving eventually gets boring: if people never learn from their mistakes, then they never grow. Our characters are older from AGU for one, and we are going to be putting them through situations that take place over time: the timeline won't remain in the odd static space that RR and AGU occupied. Like real people, the objective is to have the characters learn and grow and evolve.

Not every episode will end with a happy resolved gang - plots will continue. But people also move on: if Kimi and Tommy break up, yes, it will be hard, but eventually (particularly in the case of strong friendships like those between the group) they will mend. I don't think it would be a good idea for Phil to suddenly take Tommy's place: that would be extremely detrimental to the group's friendship, and moreover far out of his character (showing disloyalty to his best friend) which is why that's not the idea being tabled. There are a myriad of directions that can be taken, and we can explore them in time and settle on the best.

Moreover, what this plot allows us to observe is emotion: namely, Phil's conflict of pain over missing his chance with Kimi and his loyalty and attempt to be happy for his best friends. The Portugese have a word, "saudade", which is sort of a longing but deeper and more conflicted, this is the kind of emotion we'd be aiming for here.

And Luke's right: fanboyism will not enter into this, writers will be attempting to paint the relationships in a realistic, and extremely appropriately written way.
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chuckierulz55
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Okay then, so what do you propose we do about other issues on this matter? For one thing, if we go down the route of putting Kimi and Phil together, Phil's first official crush would mean nothing at all, Wally would take a back seat, and yet another secondary character of the show with a lot of potential would be unfairly tossed aside. I can't help but think that this is a bad move because she appeared in several of the later episodes of season 4 and 5, which makes me think that KC was planning to keep her around. Phil and Wally only agreed to remain friends at the time because Lil undermined the two of them, and later when the problem was resolved decided to just be friends, but still cared for one another. Are you telling me that these two wouldn't feel that way at all when they reach a more appropriate age?

Another issue I have with this is that while I haven't paid lots of attention to shipping stuff on this show in the past, pretty much every AGU forum I've been to has had T/K this and T/K that, and it's been like that long before the TP+KF episode was even available on Youtube. Imagine if what we wrote in this season actually became reality and the show was brought back onto TV with our storylines. Do you think all the AGU fans who came back out of the woodwork would want to see Phil and Kimi instead of Tommy and Kimi? Heck no! That would be like saying the vast majority of avatar fans out there would rather see Katara end up with the earthbender Haru instead of Aang.
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Well, from a fanfic writer's perspective, when I first joined the fandom in 2004 there was indeed barely anything but T/K - but then it started to swing the other way and things balanced off. At the '05 AGU Board Awards, T/L was voted most popular - I don't think T/K is definitively more popular, but rather it fluctuates from one side of the debate to the other.

Possibly Phil and Wally still feel things for each other, but maybe they don't. Just because you have feelings for someone at age 11 doesn't mean you'll still be interested in them at age 15/16 - a lot of people change during those crucial years. Phil's feelings for Kimi are meant to develop over the course of the new series, rather than having always been there.
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luke42
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Okay, time to add my two cents to this debate again. Klayton, you do bring up a good point about Wally. In fact I had completley forgotten about her as we discussed T/K or P/K in this. Maybe she plays the wildcard in all of this. Maybe it takes Phil to break up with Kimi to realize how special of a girl Wally is/was. Perhaps she recently broke up with someone herself. Maybe they lead back to each other. Wally did have a very strong characterization. She was more of a Tom-boy type and I think if there was a season 6 of AGU, she would've been prevelant more. However, that didn't happen and we're free to take the storyline where we please. But it'll come down to decision-making and compromise in the end.

I already spoke a bit about the potential Wally could have in this. She could be one of those characters that we've seen previously in the series that makes a comeback, much like Stared is looking from Nicole. The thing is whether she appears in season one, wait until season two, use her sparingly, or use her as a friend of Lil's. I think that's up for debate.

So Klayton, is the main reason why you are against coupling the characters up is because of KC? Are you afraid that if we go this route that we might be tarnishing the image that KC created of these characters? I guess I am a little confused why you are against the idea. Would you be happier if we paired the characters up with people from outside the group, like Wally & Phil; Angelica & Sean, etc? Because not only was the plan to pair Tommy and Kimi up, but Chuckie and Angelica, also. I guess it would be nice to hear from others in the group about this and how they would like to see this situation resolved. In all honesty, that was the reason why I created this thread in the first place.

I still think Phil can be written as a somewhat more mature character but still maintain the comedic charm that he had at 11 years old. I mean, we saw him attempt to eat a buffalo wing that had been sitting in the town dump, collect old animal bones, and scratch his behind while cooking a gormet meal - yes. But I think he can mature-enough so that he doesn't do those gross things. He can still be goofy and do some pretty strange things; however, I think the progress we should achieve with Phil's character development is more maturity.

Look, the AGU couples-debate has been an ongoing thing, really. On the old AGU Forum, we had a board especially created for couples talk. T/K was a popular couple that was discussed, yes. But so was T/L and C/A. Could T/K withstand the test of time and last? What about P/K? I guess that will be left up to us. Hey, I'll stand my position on this again. I think this idea can work for this - allowing T/K, then P/K and then break-ups and the whole nine yards because it happens. When people are 15 and 16 years old, they hook up and break-up sometimes in less than a week. It happens and I think we should allow it to happen in this project. As I said in my other post, if we do a good job with it, it will be harmless and we won't ruin the integrity of the show.
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chuckierulz55
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Okay, First before I say anything else, I've sensed that in the past couple days that we've been debating this stuff, feelings might have been hurt and created some tension. If this really is the case, then it wasn't my intention to cause that and I'm sorry. I have no hard feelings towards either one of you over this issue and hope that you feel the same way no matter what we end up agreeing on. I just want to throw this out because this is the first time in the past year and a half I've been here that any of us have had a major disagreement.

Anyway, now that that has been said, I guess what I really should say is that I'm willing to see a few different couples put together, but I don't want to see couples get into long term relationships that weren't even the least bit hinted at in the official series. T/K was the only officially recognized one, and then other couples like Ang/Daryl, Ang/Harold, Phil/Wally, and I guess Chuckie/Lil would seem feesable to me. Ones like Tommy and Lil or especially Chuckie and Ang, however, seem unlikely to me as they hadn't even been hinted at. Yes, I know that people change and devolop different personalities as they get older, but Tommy has always been into the more girly girl type such as Olivia, Rachel, and that one other girl who's name I can't remember from ABU. While Kimi is a bit of a tomboy I admit, Lil is a much bigger one. As for Chuckie and Angelica, I don't like the sound of that one more because she's older than he is, and she'll probably always be the stuckup bossy type that will be wearing the pants between the two of them no matter how old she gets. Besides, the age we're gonna be putting them at, an age gap still matters, so it would seem more appropriate IMO to see Chuckie with Lil and Angelica with either Harold or Daryl (Preferably Harold to me because even though he isn't the most likeable character, he's the only secondary character who has been around from start to finish, not to mention Angelica fell apart when Harold actually pretended to not pay attention to her anymore).

I guess I also feel this way because in a few movie documentaries I've seen on DVDs about recreated movies such as Spiderman, Superman, X-men, etc., all the directors and other movie writers in sort of a roundabout way said that they all agreed to not mess with the basics, and felt that the best story could be told by just keeping things as they've always been. Therefore, if we start formulating couples that make no sense under the present circumstances because we changed some of the gangs basic quirks and traits, even just a little bit, then I do indeed feel that we would be tarnishing the product that KC created. All the more reason to just work with what has already been put together instead of taking it apart and making a Battleship jigsaw puzzle look like a fighter jet.

I will say though that at the moment, I am at the very least willing to try a one episode deal before T/K is even started where Kimi and Phil just happen to be around one another a lot and participate in activities that they both end up liking. They decide to go out for a short time but then realize that it really isn't gonna work. But whatever we decide to do, I think you're right that we'll need more input from other people. I know for sure staredcraft is against P/K as he told me so in personal AIM chats with him, and I'm almost certain that CDB would be against it too if he started working on the project. The only people on the project left that I haven't heard an opinion from are redfern and gavin. Maybe it might help to hear what they have to say about all this.
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I don't think its as much a disagreement as it is you having missed the point somewhere along the way. What was being proposed was not "Phil and Kimi getting together". That was never the plan. Okay, it'd be nice, but that was not the original idea.

The two ideas proposed re: beyond just having a happy T/K were as follows:

- The Emotional Triangle - Phil and Tommy both develop feelings for Kimi. Tommy makes his move a matter of hours before Phil does, and Phil is crushed, leaving him on the outside and suffering from jealousy. Something he may at some point get over: I suggested he might talk about it with Tommy. But it wouldn't be in his character to try and break them up - immature or not, he's too loyal, so he would bow out. The point of this plot would be to explore the emotion involved here - namely, jealousy, desire and conflict. Note that at no point in this plot is it suggested that Kimi is attracted to Phil or that Phil and Kimi get together.

- Tommy and Kimi eventually break up - The suggestion that Tommy and Kimi's relationship gradually falls apart is an entirely believable one. For one, very few High School couples realistically survive more than a few months, and even less survive multiple years. The reasons for this are many and varied: people change and grow during High School and what they wanted at one point is not always what they want later. On top of that, Tommy and Kimi are both extremely prone to stressing out - something high school causes in abundance. This, and their often obsessive and serious personalities, would make the two struggle as a couple, as both have shown problems letting others in (or in Tommy's case, observing other's feelings). While I can see why they would crush on each other, and why they would come together, I can just as easily see why they would fall apart. I don't think it would be realistic for them to maintain a relationship the length of the series.

Regardless of whether P/K gets together, both the above plots come across, I feel, as believable and important to show that these characters are meant to behave like real people - something I'd like to think we're trying to achieve here.

As far as feasibility is concerned: why not bring back Olivia? Surely she's more "feasible", by your reasoning, than Kimi: after all, Tommy and Olivia kissed, Kimi and Tommy just looked at each other funny and Kimi had a crush on Tommy when she was 9, which she, by age 11, said she was over. That would make Olivia more "feasible", and, after all, to do otherwise would mean "yet another secondary character of the show with a lot of potential would be unfairly tossed aside."

Why don't we bring back Olivia? Because, like with Wally, there would be less emotion. The eight developed characters - namely, Phil, Lil, Tommy, Chuckie, Dil, Susie, Angelica and Kimi - are the ones most people care about, and ultimately the ones we know best and are most attached to. We would rather see them deal with emotion than some secondary character created for a limited purpose. We're trying to avoid that happening - Chloe will be heavily developed so we have a strong character rather than just a cardboard cutout - but very few of the secondary characters in AGU were much more than one-joke/plot wonders, which is largely what happens in a series encased in a time-bubble and no-one really grows up. It was one of AGU's main flaws: no-one ever seemed to learn anything from their experiences, or at least, never put that learning to practice. Angelica was still bossy and vain, no matter how many times she got beaten because of it. Tommy was still prone to putting himself ahead of his friends: even in a realatively selfless moment in "Trading Places", he was more concerned about his movie than about Chuckie and Kimi being friends again. Phil and Lil are the only characters who showed any real growth as a result of their eps together: particulary "Coup DeVille" and "Seperate But Equal", which is why I always found them to be the most compelling characters.

As for the relevance of "hints", this is questionable at best. For a start, "hints" do not make a relationship. Lil's one moment of attraction to Chuckie came while he was being incredibly uncharacteristic. Despite herself, Angelica has occasionally shown that she truly does care for her friends, so there is more to her than meets the eye, and her balance with Chuckie makes for compelling characterisation. They are not an obvious couple, but their polarities compliment each other - Chuckie needs a strong figure to help him bring out his own strength (which is why he is friends with Tommy, but the need would transfer to a relationship) while Angelica needs an emotional core and - dare I say - a talking conscience - to keep her in check. Strong characters like Angelica - and in "Ladies Man", Susie - bring out nothing in Harold but sycophancy, which is part of why he's such a miserable study of a character: Harold is a dog who keeps coming back to be kicked. He doesn't need friendship but attention, and this is not a sign of attraction but a sign of needing serious help.
As far as T/K getting dust in their eyes at the end of "TP+KF" is concerned, I've already discussed how Kimi and Tommy could be attracted to each other but also the fact that their personalities are so conflicting that they would be torn apart. And while maturity develops behaviour and knowledge, very few people's personalities change that radically as they grow older. "Show me a boy of 7, and I will show you the man."

At the start of this, back on the old boards, I remember saying that couples should stay out of it. As big a P/K fan as I am, I didn't believe that couples had a place in a continuation of AGU. Then, however, the decision was made to age the characters, and someone (I'm guessing Stared, but I wasn't here) introduced the idea of T/K. I offered up an argument against it, that T/K from hints was no more plausible than P/K from personality - arguments I've already backed up on this thread and others. I've heard no substantiated arguments for T/K from anyone beyond the hint at the end of TP+KF, and the suggestion that they're "both so similar", but looking at their characters, their similarities would be more likely to eventually drive them apart. If nothing else, neither would be likely to bend to the other's will - they're both so stubborn that neither would give ground in a fight, so a small thing would blow up out of proportion.

I'm still not lobbying for P/K to get together - I'd like it, but I don't expect it to happen. Just for Phil to have genuine emotions. For Tommy and Kimi not to be portrayed as happy beyond realism, but rather to be portrayed as true to their characters, in a relationship that, on the odds, would probably fail. I'd like to see the relationship fail and would like to see the skilled bunch of writers we've assembled take the characters through that kind of emotional fallout that would effect the group of friends in which Tommy and Kimi are entwined. I think we would be making a better series for it.

Not all endings are happy. And it's the ones that aren't so happy that are frequently the most memorable, the most accurate, and the most rewarding.
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Kimi12715
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Request for Mr. 12715 to make the 15th post on his opinion on the subject matter!

Okey-dokey then. Klayton, I think you're overworrying - ace & you have been offering alternate views on a very controversial topic for couples, citing what KC may have wanted and how humans would naturally behave, etc. Me? I'm completely neutral on this - I'm done being a T/K shipper, for real. Whether we take KC's hint or not, I just want to see good writing for quality ep plots out of all this. Couples don't affect ep plots, so...
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