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P/K vs. T/K; the possibilities
Topic Started: Jan 7 2008, 11:44 AM (1,784 Views)
luke42
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Dil Roolz

First of all Klayton, no hard feelings at all. This has become a debate that has involved us disagreeing about this particular element in the project. Of course we are discussing something that won't take effect until late season 2 - most, if not all season 3. But it's good that we're getting a good start on this issue and trying to resolve it before we have to start writing season 2. It's something that needs to be addressed.

So you said that Tommy may not be interested in Kimi or Lil because they are considered Tom-boys. They are not the girly-girl types like Olivia, Anita, Rachel, etc. So what was up with the look he gave Kimi in TP + KF? Obviously he has a crush on her/has feelings for her. There's got to be interest there. Tommy and Kimi have similar personalities - in fact, I think fans have descirbed her as being a female version of Tommy because she has similar strengths as Tommy does personality-wise. I think those two have compatibilities that could make an ideal couple. The thing is, they will be pairing up when they're in high school, as acepilot said; not the most ideal time to be paired up because people get together/break-up quite frequently. And these couples won't be lasting very long - at least that's been our preliminary discussions on this.

Klayton, you point out that you are not in favor of an Angelica/Chuckie pairing because Angelica is one year older than Chuckie. Well, Chuckie is one year older than Lil. Are you not in favor of the C/A pairing because the female character is older than the male (by one year)? Whatever the case, I think C/A is just as logical in happening as C/L would be.

Some of the secondary characters I can see pairing with the major characters - but others just aren't that appealing to me. Harold is certainly one of those characters that I just cannot see paired up with anyone, let alone Angelica. I mean he is a nice guy and all, but Angelica continues to push him around and treat him like dirt - and he takes it! Do you honestly believe that makes for a healthy relationship? You've got to believe that eventually he'll have enough and forget about her once and for all. But he continues to take the abuse. Another character that I've never cared much for is Darryl. He's another nice guy but he's clearly blind in that he can't see beyond Angelica. Remember when it Angelica trying to get Darryl's attention? Well now it's the other way around and I've got to admit, it's pretty sad. As Ace said in his previous post regarding certain secondary characters, he's a one-joke/plot character because he keeps striking out time and time again with Angelica. There hasn't been a clear resolution to their earlier predicament and it kept being repeated in a couple of different season 5 episodes. I was glad we finally didn't have to see Darryl anymore because he became extremely annoying for me. I just don't see him working out in our project, either. Now other secondary characters like Sean, Nicole, Rachel, Wally, etc - now they have potential. If we go the route of just having the 8 main characters date secondary characters, I'd approve of those four. But, I'm still not ditching the idea of coupling T/K and P/K. I'm still in favor of doing this and think this is the direction we should go. But like I said before, this is something we're all going to have to compromise on.

Another thing you mentioned, Klayton, is that any couple we do create, whether it be T/K, P/K, or C/A, that because KC never paired them up that it wouldn't ultimately make sense according to present circumstances. Are you saying that T/K wouldn't make sense, even though it was briefly hinted at in TP + KF? If there's any couple that would work in this, it would be T/K because of that.

Last but not least, CDB did say he would like to be involved but would only do so part-time as he has other things he is busy with. I don't know if he has been following along with everything that has gone here in the Project section of the board or not.

By the way, I did consult with Ace after I posted this and I was a bit confused about some of the things that had been decided on - namely T/K being paired up and ultimately breaking up, and then P/K not getting together at all. Now that I've got this figured out, maybe I won't make matters worse in getting everyone else confused, too. :D
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chuckierulz55
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Well I gotta say now that I've read you and Ace's last two posts, I do feel confused. :D The longer we've discussed this, and the longer our posts have been, the more I struggle to understand just what's going on. Are you two saying then that you don't want Tommy OR Phil to end up in a long term relationship with Kimi? If that's what you're saying, and rather that you just want to write about Phil developing feelings for her but doesn't come forward about it or something, THAT I don't have a problem with. It's More just long term stuff that I don't think would work with those two. As for T/K, I'm in favor of either a long term relationship with those two OR just a short one, but that's what I'd prefer to see. Other than an official acknowledgement from KC I can't really put it into eloquent words why I feel this way. I just do.

As for C/A and C/L, I guess I like C/L better because while it didn't occur to me that Lil is a year younger than Chuckie, it's a lot more common to see the guy older than the girl, especially in this age group. Also, you both make the argument that people change a little bit as they get older and their personalities develop different quirks and interests, so who's to say we can't write something that would make a relationship of those two more likely?

I do think you make a good point that Chuckie would thrive if a strong willed woman pushed him, but I think Ang is a little too strong willed for someone like him. Also, even if she doesn't constantly crack the whip, she has also shown that she can easily conive and manipulate Chuckie into doing what she wants (IE Project Chuckie, Yu-gotta-go, Petition This!, etc.) and not only do I see it not workng, even for just a short term deal, but the last thing I want to see is my favorite character go through a relationship where he's treated poorly.

Also, if we take the route you guys want to take in altering personalities a little bit, why not do so with Harold? You guys clearly don't like his character that much (and truth be told I don't care much for him either :P ), so why not modify him into someone that develops a little more backbone like he did with Susie's help? Ang clearly begged to have him around again when he did so, and besides, even though he's been like a sick puppy that keeps coming back for more abuse, I just think it would seem unjust for him to not end up with what he had been after for so long, especially when he's the only secondary character that has been their from beginning to end. I mean, Timmy Turner is kind of the same way with Trixie Tang on FOP, but nobody seems to dislike him, and I can't help but think that that show's fanbase would like to see it happen someday too.
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Redfern05
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I can't really see Phil & Kimi together,nor have I see any hints of those two in Rugrats or All Grown Up.
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acepilot
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I would tend to think that the difference between Timmy and Harold is that Timmy is essentially likable. Even when Susie "trained" him, he simply transferred his sycophancy from one girl to the other - he wasn't standing up to Angelica, as much as he was simply obsessing over Susie instead. As soon as it became apparent that Susie wasn't interested in him, he leapt back to Angelica. Harold will be a character particularly hard to recover - he's what Chuckie might have been without Tommy around, I think. He was introduced for the "Pre-School Daze" aspect of Rugrats and never really properly developed beyond that - he still acts much like a pre-schooler (albeit a wimpy preschooler with a crush) in AGU.

I still think C/A is interesting: Angelica's not as strong as she seems at times - she's more reliant on the gang than she looks, but I don't think she'd overpower Chuckie. He's more likely to stand up to her in a relationship because it would be more a feeling of equality for him. As for the age thing, 1 year is virtually no difference, at least, no significant difference. Angelica wouldn't treat him poorly: that's what she does to Harold. For her, Chuckie is more a fascination (resulting in Project Chuckie and others), and there she sees potential. But she comes to terms that there is no need for Chuckie to change who he is and they are friends regardless. Besides, the humour elements of C/A are rife: if you can find it, "Pretend Dates" is still the definitive C/A piece, though Jon Sario may have pulled all versions of it when he decided to focus solely on his webcomic. Every Chuckie fan should read it: no-one other than KC themselves nails the characters of Chuckie and Angelica like Jon did.

No "official acknowledgement" will be forthcoming from KC, and the "look" is of dubious relevance. So, I guess we're it. Yes, what I'm after is a long-term relationship for neither pairing: I think what's been proposed is something everyone should be able to get along with without too many hard feelings. I'm glad to see that you understand what I was trying to get across now and I hope that this can end the discussion on a positive note.
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luke42
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Dil Roolz

Yeah, what Ace said. :lol:

I think we made some headway in this debate. So as it stands right now, T/K will not be a long-term couple, and P/K will not be paired at all. Now that that's clear, I will be ducking out.
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chuckierulz55
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Well now that TK vs PK has been resolved (I think...now I'm not so sure after what I heard happened with Robert in the last chat :shakehead: ) I guess we'll need to compromise the shipping aspect of Chuckie's situation as well. We've discussed the pros and cons of both Lil and Ang, but I'd also like to know how big of a deal this pairing would be to you as oppossed to TK/PK. I seem to be the only one on the board that is majorly a chuckie fan and then I'm also curious to see how the majorly ang and lil fans feel about that happening with their favorite.

Also, now that we've made some progress, I'm wondering what we're going to do with wally now. Do we at the very least still plan to keep her around in the general episodes, or even experiment with more shipping stuff between her and Phil down the road? I just wanted some feedback on that.
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acepilot
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You've gotten me thinking about the Wally thing, actually. Between dinner break and getting home, I thought of something: what if Phil, while pining after Kimi (who is with Tommy), hooked up with Wally to try and get over Kimi. It would help emphasise the jealousy he was feeling and him trying to move on, but she might either eventually realise that he's not giving his all to the relationship and end it, or might be the one to finally get him to talk about Kimi (though I think he'd talk to Lil as well). They could be revisited later, after Phil is more over Kimi, or maybe just leave it at the one plot and have them part friends. What do you think? This way, Wally can be developed into a full character and her and Phil's mutual crush is acknowledged, while having an effect on the already-discussed plots.

C/A wasn't proposed as being "that big a deal", but rather something that builds up under the surface, a more natural progression for their characters rather than having a big defining moment (as was the case with the ideas for T/K). I've never read a convincing C/A fic that had them suddenly come together, but all rather evolve out of their unlikely friendship into something more.

The second pairing I wrote was Chuckie/Angelica and they remain to this day one of my favourites. Angelica and Chuckie are my favourite characters behind Phil, regardless of relationships, and I've got to admit that I never even saw Lil as a potential partner for Chuckie. The only suggestion of any sort, as I said, comes as Lil sees Chuckie during an extremely uncharacteristic moment. Other than that, there is nothing to suggest they would be appropriate for each other or attracted to each other. Lil's sense of attraction seems to be more toward the cute-boy type (Brett and they guy in "The Science Pair" come to mind), while I doubt she would be "strong" enough to hold Chuckie together. Angelica and Chuckie have always made for fascinating viewing, as far back as Rugrats eps like "Cuffed" and "Driving Miss Angelica" through to more recent AGU eps like "Petition This" and "Project Chuckie". They form a chemistry which I, for one, find fascinating but simultaneously easy to write. Their relationship, as I see it, would be playful, bordering on Chuckie being a long-suffering kind of boyfriend/husband but loving it anyway because Angelica's emotions are genuine, if sometimes slightly abrasive.

For a prime example (and I think Klayton will love it because it really is a fascinating look at Chuckie's character - and he is extremely in character here), check out this fic. It's called "Some Call it Life", by plasticphoenix, and it's a great look at how an in-character Chuckie and Angelica come together and how their relationship works through ups and downs. There are also two prequels ("Scenes from Here", which inspired Road Trip, and "Prelude to Life", a similar study of Angelica) which you might find interesting to see why I think C/A would work so well.
The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking - my first fanfic in nearly 2 years, now at Luke's Animatoon's board!

Tertiary - An AGU/Weekenders crossover, back at last!

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staredcraft
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Look guys the main reason I avoided this thread was, in the early days of it, I didn't want to just make posts that was all T/K Biased...and then later, Chuckierulez said what needed to be said (about how it felt out of place for P/K to happen) so I felt no need to post anything.

I just, like i almost always try to do anyway, tried to avoid causing trouble and I felt that if I posted here, that's all it would have led to.
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acepilot
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Stared, the point of this thread was to make posts that were T/K biased. No-one else did, really. They all just made anti-P/K ones. Anyway, it wouldn't have been causing trouble: this thread was trouble from the moment of its creation. :) Just try and make sure you contribute more in future, I guess, so you're aware of what's being talked about.
The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking - my first fanfic in nearly 2 years, now at Luke's Animatoon's board!

Tertiary - An AGU/Weekenders crossover, back at last!

The AGU Fan Continuation Project - come join the fun.

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Regineman96
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chuckierulz55
Jan 15 2008, 10:16 PM
Even though I still don't think it's a good idea, I still at the same time am willing to listen to other points of view. Perhaps maybe I just need to sit down and ponder the concept a little more or something. However, whether you call this a triangle or something else, I'm also concerned about it anyway because in these episodes, I would like to see the ending result be that the whole gang is on good terms with one another because that was anything but the case in ABU. If we persue this avenue of T/K/P, I don't know how it could be worked so that neither one of those three don't have bad feelings toward the other, even if Phil didn't actually do something to break them apart. On top of that, don't you think you're being a little hard on Tommy? I know Tommy became a little arrogant and did some two timing, but he could definately be a lot worse, and I don't really invision him being a lot worse either.

And as far as Phil maturing is concerned, if the stuff we write matures his character too much, then Phil won't be Phil anymore. Therefore the kind of immaturity which he currently displays just doesn't sound like something that Kimi would tolerate.
Um, what is two-timing?
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Regineman96
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luke42
Jan 17 2008, 06:26 PM
First of all Klayton, no hard feelings at all. This has become a debate that has involved us disagreeing about this particular element in the project. Of course we are discussing something that won't take effect until late season 2 - most, if not all season 3. But it's good that we're getting a good start on this issue and trying to resolve it before we have to start writing season 2. It's something that needs to be addressed.

So you said that Tommy may not be interested in Kimi or Lil because they are considered Tom-boys. They are not the girly-girl types like Olivia, Anita, Rachel, etc. So what was up with the look he gave Kimi in TP + KF? Obviously he has a crush on her/has feelings for her. There's got to be interest there. Tommy and Kimi have similar personalities - in fact, I think fans have descirbed her as being a female version of Tommy because she has similar strengths as Tommy does personality-wise. I think those two have compatibilities that could make an ideal couple. The thing is, they will be pairing up when they're in high school, as acepilot said; not the most ideal time to be paired up because people get together/break-up quite frequently. And these couples won't be lasting very long - at least that's been our preliminary discussions on this.

Klayton, you point out that you are not in favor of an Angelica/Chuckie pairing because Angelica is one year older than Chuckie. Well, Chuckie is one year older than Lil. Are you not in favor of the C/A pairing because the female character is older than the male (by one year)? Whatever the case, I think C/A is just as logical in happening as C/L would be.

Some of the secondary characters I can see pairing with the major characters - but others just aren't that appealing to me. Harold is certainly one of those characters that I just cannot see paired up with anyone, let alone Angelica. I mean he is a nice guy and all, but Angelica continues to push him around and treat him like dirt - and he takes it! Do you honestly believe that makes for a healthy relationship? You've got to believe that eventually he'll have enough and forget about her once and for all. But he continues to take the abuse. Another character that I've never cared much for is Darryl. He's another nice guy but he's clearly blind in that he can't see beyond Angelica. Remember when it Angelica trying to get Darryl's attention? Well now it's the other way around and I've got to admit, it's pretty sad. As Ace said in his previous post regarding certain secondary characters, he's a one-joke/plot character because he keeps striking out time and time again with Angelica. There hasn't been a clear resolution to their earlier predicament and it kept being repeated in a couple of different season 5 episodes. I was glad we finally didn't have to see Darryl anymore because he became extremely annoying for me. I just don't see him working out in our project, either. Now other secondary characters like Sean, Nicole, Rachel, Wally, etc - now they have potential. If we go the route of just having the 8 main characters date secondary characters, I'd approve of those four. But, I'm still not ditching the idea of coupling T/K and P/K. I'm still in favor of doing this and think this is the direction we should go. But like I said before, this is something we're all going to have to compromise on.

Another thing you mentioned, Klayton, is that any couple we do create, whether it be T/K, P/K, or C/A, that because KC never paired them up that it wouldn't ultimately make sense according to present circumstances. Are you saying that T/K wouldn't make sense, even though it was briefly hinted at in TP + KF? If there's any couple that would work in this, it would be T/K because of that.

Last but not least, CDB did say he would like to be involved but would only do so part-time as he has other things he is busy with. I don't know if he has been following along with everything that has gone here in the Project section of the board or not.

By the way, I did consult with Ace after I posted this and I was a bit confused about some of the things that had been decided on - namely T/K being paired up and ultimately breaking up, and then P/K not getting together at all. Now that I've got this figured out, maybe I won't make matters worse in getting everyone else confused, too. :D
This romance stuff is putting me to sleep. And as for Anita...didn't like her, as she was only in ABU. That is the equivalent of Olivia only being in Fear Of Falling.
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Regineman96
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acepilot
Jan 17 2008, 07:53 AM
I don't think its as much a disagreement as it is you having missed the point somewhere along the way. What was being proposed was not "Phil and Kimi getting together". That was never the plan. Okay, it'd be nice, but that was not the original idea.

The two ideas proposed re: beyond just having a happy T/K were as follows:

- The Emotional Triangle - Phil and Tommy both develop feelings for Kimi. Tommy makes his move a matter of hours before Phil does, and Phil is crushed, leaving him on the outside and suffering from jealousy. Something he may at some point get over: I suggested he might talk about it with Tommy. But it wouldn't be in his character to try and break them up - immature or not, he's too loyal, so he would bow out. The point of this plot would be to explore the emotion involved here - namely, jealousy, desire and conflict. Note that at no point in this plot is it suggested that Kimi is attracted to Phil or that Phil and Kimi get together.

- Tommy and Kimi eventually break up - The suggestion that Tommy and Kimi's relationship gradually falls apart is an entirely believable one. For one, very few High School couples realistically survive more than a few months, and even less survive multiple years. The reasons for this are many and varied: people change and grow during High School and what they wanted at one point is not always what they want later. On top of that, Tommy and Kimi are both extremely prone to stressing out - something high school causes in abundance. This, and their often obsessive and serious personalities, would make the two struggle as a couple, as both have shown problems letting others in (or in Tommy's case, observing other's feelings). While I can see why they would crush on each other, and why they would come together, I can just as easily see why they would fall apart. I don't think it would be realistic for them to maintain a relationship the length of the series.

Regardless of whether P/K gets together, both the above plots come across, I feel, as believable and important to show that these characters are meant to behave like real people - something I'd like to think we're trying to achieve here.

As far as feasibility is concerned: why not bring back Olivia? Surely she's more "feasible", by your reasoning, than Kimi: after all, Tommy and Olivia kissed, Kimi and Tommy just looked at each other funny and Kimi had a crush on Tommy when she was 9, which she, by age 11, said she was over. That would make Olivia more "feasible", and, after all, to do otherwise would mean "yet another secondary character of the show with a lot of potential would be unfairly tossed aside."

Why don't we bring back Olivia? Because, like with Wally, there would be less emotion. The eight developed characters - namely, Phil, Lil, Tommy, Chuckie, Dil, Susie, Angelica and Kimi - are the ones most people care about, and ultimately the ones we know best and are most attached to. We would rather see them deal with emotion than some secondary character created for a limited purpose. We're trying to avoid that happening - Chloe will be heavily developed so we have a strong character rather than just a cardboard cutout - but very few of the secondary characters in AGU were much more than one-joke/plot wonders, which is largely what happens in a series encased in a time-bubble and no-one really grows up. It was one of AGU's main flaws: no-one ever seemed to learn anything from their experiences, or at least, never put that learning to practice. Angelica was still bossy and vain, no matter how many times she got beaten because of it. Tommy was still prone to putting himself ahead of his friends: even in a realatively selfless moment in "Trading Places", he was more concerned about his movie than about Chuckie and Kimi being friends again. Phil and Lil are the only characters who showed any real growth as a result of their eps together: particulary "Coup DeVille" and "Seperate But Equal", which is why I always found them to be the most compelling characters.

As for the relevance of "hints", this is questionable at best. For a start, "hints" do not make a relationship. Lil's one moment of attraction to Chuckie came while he was being incredibly uncharacteristic. Despite herself, Angelica has occasionally shown that she truly does care for her friends, so there is more to her than meets the eye, and her balance with Chuckie makes for compelling characterisation. They are not an obvious couple, but their polarities compliment each other - Chuckie needs a strong figure to help him bring out his own strength (which is why he is friends with Tommy, but the need would transfer to a relationship) while Angelica needs an emotional core and - dare I say - a talking conscience - to keep her in check. Strong characters like Angelica - and in "Ladies Man", Susie - bring out nothing in Harold but sycophancy, which is part of why he's such a miserable study of a character: Harold is a dog who keeps coming back to be kicked. He doesn't need friendship but attention, and this is not a sign of attraction but a sign of needing serious help.
As far as T/K getting dust in their eyes at the end of "TP+KF" is concerned, I've already discussed how Kimi and Tommy could be attracted to each other but also the fact that their personalities are so conflicting that they would be torn apart. And while maturity develops behaviour and knowledge, very few people's personalities change that radically as they grow older. "Show me a boy of 7, and I will show you the man."

At the start of this, back on the old boards, I remember saying that couples should stay out of it. As big a P/K fan as I am, I didn't believe that couples had a place in a continuation of AGU. Then, however, the decision was made to age the characters, and someone (I'm guessing Stared, but I wasn't here) introduced the idea of T/K. I offered up an argument against it, that T/K from hints was no more plausible than P/K from personality - arguments I've already backed up on this thread and others. I've heard no substantiated arguments for T/K from anyone beyond the hint at the end of TP+KF, and the suggestion that they're "both so similar", but looking at their characters, their similarities would be more likely to eventually drive them apart. If nothing else, neither would be likely to bend to the other's will - they're both so stubborn that neither would give ground in a fight, so a small thing would blow up out of proportion.

I'm still not lobbying for P/K to get together - I'd like it, but I don't expect it to happen. Just for Phil to have genuine emotions. For Tommy and Kimi not to be portrayed as happy beyond realism, but rather to be portrayed as true to their characters, in a relationship that, on the odds, would probably fail. I'd like to see the relationship fail and would like to see the skilled bunch of writers we've assembled take the characters through that kind of emotional fallout that would effect the group of friends in which Tommy and Kimi are entwined. I think we would be making a better series for it.

Not all endings are happy. And it's the ones that aren't so happy that are frequently the most memorable, the most accurate, and the most rewarding.
Tommy and Kimi...ARE YOU F*CKIN KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW?
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chuckierulz55
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Regineman96
Dec 21 2011, 07:15 PM
Um, what is two-timing?
Two timing is cheating in a relationship, or in Tommy's case, perceived cheating. In the All Broke Up episode it showed two different girls that he was involved with (although with one of those girls, he had only gotten her phone number). At the end of the episode when Rachel showed up and Tommy was hanging out with said other girl, the situation suddenly looked like he was two timing.
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Regineman96
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Um, thanks. I never got two-timed in my life.
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luke42
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Regineman, no offense, but if the romance stuff puts you to sleep, why'd you make replies to this thread? :D
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