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Our State Of The Union; Camping
Topic Started: Dec 11 2007, 10:06 AM (1,318 Views)
fub@r
Member Avatar
VOGON Administrator
:angry: As everyone is well aware, l'm a seasoned player here on Vogon Anarchy. The reason for this post, is to vent my frustrations, on the state of this server. I'm not alone when I say, that a number of players are complaining that to much time and effort is being wasted, trying to control the issue of camping. It has got to the point, where your now limited to the amount of ammo that your able to use because, to control the "campers" that just stand there and shoot, your penelizing everyone for that matter. Even though, most if not a majority of the players here, don't camp.
I can remember when I first got here, the reason I stayed, was the way it was setup.
We had campers, we had semi-campers, and then we had the rest. The players that
make Anarchy what it is. The best damn Excessive Mod server I have ever played on.
I feel your devoting to much time and effort, in an attempt to control this issue. Q3 will
ALWAYS have campers, no matter what you do to alleviate this issue. Stop penelizing
the whole, for the sake of a few.
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mordockdotcom
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Forum Administrator
fub@r
Dec 11 2007, 11:06 AM
...Stop penelizing the whole, for the sake of a few.

I have to agree with fub@r (if for different reasons)... It's nothing short of a pain in the ass when I happen to stand in the same spot for more than a couple of seconds. The next thing I know, my ammo is gone, and my ROF is shot.

You could call me a liar if I said that I never camp... different maps and different opponents call for different strategies.

What a lot of people fail to realize is that the knife cuts both ways. It only takes one frag to give up your position... now your opponent knows exactly where you are camping, and can either avoid that spot, or take you out strategically.

Call it cheap if you'd like... sniping is cheap... controlling and laying down fire on a bottle-neck/choke-point is cheap. Using your knowledge of a particular map to your advantage is cheap.

Camping always has been, and always will be part of the game. Can we all just accept it and move on?
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devistator
Unregistered

I must agree with old man fubs. Too much time is placed on campers. I enjoy playing the campers because they are easier targets to frag.
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Insaniak
Unregistered

I have to agree with most of what's been said here... the real problem is the anti-camp code doesn't do anything to prevent camping. Step forward, step back, or just wiggle a bit and the campers continue to spam.

The limited ammo is a pain... I got used to it, but I still give up a lot of frags because of it. Hook myself into someplace I shouldn't be, lose a frag. Switch weapons (clumsily), lose a frag. Take eyes off the battlefield to check ammo, lose a frag. Basically I get fragged almost every time I run out of ammo. Sure I could be a better player, but I have to agree with fubar that this does in fact penalize non-campers in an attempt to control camping.

And I agree with devistator that the campers are free frags. They bothered me when I first joined the server. Then I learned their camping spots and made it my regular patrol route. Free frags when you know where they live and they just stand there. There's very few maps with truly defensible camping positions. If I walk into to their spam, I feel dumb because I knew it was there - but at least it's my own fault for getting fragged stupidly, instead of getting fragged by limited ammo. And it happens much less frequently.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to advocate unlimited ammo. I think limiting ammo was a really cool idea to prevent spamming and encourage better gameplay. Unfortunately I can't say it has resulted in better gameplay... and I can't say I have a solution either. :huh:
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J.0hN
Unregistered

Perhaps a pole should be started?
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divinity
Unregistered

Quote:
 
Q3 will ALWAYS have campers, no matter what you do to alleviate this issue. Stop penelizing the whole, for the sake of a few.


I think there are a lot myths and misconceptions when it comes to camping. For one, it IS a valid strategy that can be useful is certain situations. If you have ever played CTF or threewave, or other team games, camping on defense is an obvious strategy when defending the flag.

However, there are very few other instances when camping is actually beneficial for a player in FFA, especially in VOGON. The closest I can think of when camping should actually be considered in regular DM is on dm17 when camping the upper 2 ledges is smart, especially for getting spawn kills. As stated by other people, this brings up an important point, even if you are moving... it can still be considered camping. Dm17 is a great example of this, and there are plenty more.

So why penalize only campers who stand still and not those who move a little bit, wiggle, or stay to a certain area? I don't see the point either, but not because I believe camping is wrong... actually it can be smart... but because true stand still campers do not benefit themselves 99% of the time.

While camping is is viable strategy in FFA, but it's not even a good one. There are very few instances when a stand still camp could even get you a SLIGHT chance at a win. As other people have said, this type of camping makes you very vulnerable, as you are not moving. Also, if you camp, it requires the action to come to you, while the best strategy is to go to the action. In a sense, this type is camping is the anti-ffa strategy, as the idea is to be constantly moving, which makes you a much harder target to hit.

The *only* time when standstill camping is beneficial in Vogon is for camping spawn kills, especially on smaller maps. There are few locations when someone could sit in the same spot and spam spawn locations and quite possibly win the game from this. The only maps I could really see this happening are dm1 and dm2 though.

In conclusion, I agree with the rest of you. There will always be campers, and camping isn't necessary bad at all, as it is an actual strategy. The actual type of camping they are trying to discourage is a style that doesn't occur the majority of the time, and even it it does, who are you and I to tell how someone should play the game? Especially if their play style makes them easier for us to kill them :)

Keep up the great work on the servers. We know it isn't easy to please everyone and it's hard to find a balance. Oh, and please get rid of the limited ammo.

Unlimited MG FTW :lol:
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mordockdotcom
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J.0hN
Dec 12 2007, 12:37 AM
Perhaps a pole should be started?

Good Idea.

A poll has been started in order to collect some objective data on this topic. Please continue to discuss this issue in this thread, but also take a couple seconds to enter your vote in the poll.

http://forum.vogonhq.com/index.php?showtop...=0#entry3006955
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Insaniak
Unregistered

Ok here's an idea.

(notice I didn't say it was going to be a *good* idea) :D

If people want more ammo, put the ammo boxes back on the map.

I can't wait to see Fubar camping a box of MG bullets. :lol:
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mordockdotcom
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Forum Administrator
Insaniak
Dec 13 2007, 09:46 PM
Ok here's an idea...
If people want more ammo, put the ammo boxes back on the map.

First of all, congrats on the second pip, Insaniak, you're the first non-mod to get there.:D

As for your idea... I can't really cite any specific reason for not liking it, but I really don't like it, lol.

Something about having to look for the ammo that I need for the weapon that I want to use just doesn't seem like fun...
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dyn
Unregistered

We can adjust 3 camp settings on-the-fly:

1.) campTime - how much ms must pass before someone is camping
2.) campDetect - how much movement is camping
3.) campAmmo - how much ammo to take away from campers

How it works?
Mod checks if you only moved LESS than campDetect distance in campTime period. Right now it's 160 points in 1500 or 1800 ms (1.8s). Then it does 3 things until you move - takes away campAmmo amount of ammo for each shot, stops ammo regen completely, slows down firing rate (approx. 3x slower).

So what you see it's just camp detection under current settings. With higher detect value more "strafing campers" can be detected and with more campTime, less players can be detected, but it can help campers too -- they would just need to move once per 5 sec, if campTime is 5000.

Before, when camp detect was OFF we had TONS of complaints. Now we have some. So logically this is better.

In case you can't live without camping, then ask some admin to set vg_campTime to 0 which turns this feature OFF completely.

Another method to combat campers is to reduce ammo, especially for instant-hit weapons. But then again a lot of people complain, instead of taking 2 min to adapt and use some skill with ammo.
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borgsex
Unregistered

fub@r
Dec 11 2007, 10:06 AM
The reason for this post, is to vent my frustrations, on the state of this server. (/snip) Stop penelizing
the whole, for the sake of a few.

Agree with the FUBAR, Borgsex does.

Let them camp..if they camp, they hold still
if they hold still, easier to shoot them it becomes...


I enjoy the changes to the game, and the ammo limits of late have made it more challenging to shoot only when necessary and make your shots count.
so I'm getting better because of it.

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ES*StickMaN
Unregistered

I must say I agree with insaniac on his idea....
If we are going to have limited ammo (which I personally cant stand...lol)
then lets put a few ammo boxes back on the map so we at least have a chance to keep our weapon of choice what ever thet may be.... :D

And maybe get rid of the hook on anarchy server so that it at least switches to another weapon so we can at least fire something rather than suddenly pulling ourselves over to the enemy for a close up frag by them......lol



Note: things like this that I say here are just my personal opinion and in no way reflect the views or ideas of other Vogon admins :ph43r:
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ES*Dragonfly
Unregistered

:rolleyes: Perhaps, this will add some incite, perhaps it won't. I am very new and only will play on anarchy, the other servers are all a waste of my time.

I actually was 2nd last night, and almost won the next map, and missed by 2 frags i think. And there were more than 2 people playing LOL !!! (about 5 or 6).

Might I inform you, if my education on camping is correct, honestly here is how i play... I quickly try to find others, then I MUST stand still to shoot...

I cannot move and shoot at the same time and make a kill...!!! I then run to the next place that is occupied, etc…I apologize to inform you that I have to "CAMP".... (lol) or I can't hit the broad side of a barn !!! If I may say so...So am I cheating?

And as for the ammo... I now know why my gun disappears, thank u, but last night I learned a way to not have my guns disappear... by timing myself... to switch between the grenade one and the rocket one, I don't run out of ammo, and my guns don't get taken from me. I was also able to keep the special blue circle things that seem to give more power? I have to ask my mentor about those things, but haven’t seen him lately…

I do.. not and cannot hit a thing unless I stand still... so Does This Mean I'm Cheating ???


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Insaniak
Unregistered

ES*Dragonfly
Dec 15 2007, 10:35 AM
:rolleyes:
I do.. not and cannot hit a thing unless I stand still...  so Does This Mean I'm Cheating ???

Earlier tonight this topic came up in conversation on the server. So you're not the only player facing this problem.

Personally, I say no it isn't camping or cheating in any way. It's just a n00b thing, i.e. you're not good enough yet to aim while moving.

But the anti-camp code on the server will kick in whenever it detects no movement from you.

Don't feel bad about it. Just keep in mind you make an easy target while standing still, and learn to aim while moving/dodging.
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ES*Dragonfly
Unregistered

Insaniak
Dec 16 2007, 01:01 AM
ES*Dragonfly
Dec 15 2007, 10:35 AM
:rolleyes:
I do.. not and cannot hit a thing unless I stand still...  so Does This Mean I'm Cheating ???

Earlier tonight this topic came up in conversation on the server. So you're not the only player facing this problem.

Personally, I say no it isn't camping or cheating in any way. It's just a n00b thing, i.e. you're not good enough yet to aim while moving.

But the anti-camp code on the server will kick in whenever it detects no movement from you.

Don't feel bad about it. Just keep in mind you make an easy target while standing still, and learn to aim while moving/dodging.

Thank you, you’re very kind as well, and will practice more. Your advice is appreciated. I am very picky as well I guess, with whom I actually play the game with... I like playing when a player named SERGIO is there, he's nice to me. I have not yet spoken to anyone though. LOL... embarrassed... (shy)

At least everyone seems pretty good so far and not yelled or accused me of "Camping", since I’m not doing it purposely, & cannot sit still at all but for a half second.... pause then shoot ...

My method:
I tend to just hold the mouse button down constantly, that’s why I learned real fast how to switch 2 guns back and forth... lol, did not know what else to do so that I never missed anybody... and was actually leading a bunch last night.

Thanks again... its pretty much fun… and makes me laugh…
:-)
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